4 ms·

> baby formula/diapers (this is exceptionally sad more than anything) At first blush, you're crushingly obviously right. What kind of society do we have where

by Kalium 5y ago

> baby formula/diapers (this is exceptionally sad more than anything) At first blush, you're crushingly obviously right. What kind of society do we have where people have to steal baby formula? The real answer is much stranger: there's a lot of money to be made buying stolen baby formula and selling it to stores that won't ask where you got it. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/02/magazine/money-issue-baby-formula-crime-ring.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/02/magazine/mone...

mc32 5y ago
Yes, this is why you get those stickers on items from CVS/Walgreens etc., that say not to be sold individually as well as intended for sale at "Store Name" because theft rigs are a thing.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Yes, this is why you get those stickers on items from CVS/Walgreens etc., that say not to be sold individually No, not to be sold individually is mostly from the manufacturer, and mostly about labelling requirements for sale. If the bundle meets the requirement but the contained packets do not, then the restriction is noted. > as well as intended for sale at "Store Name" That's mostly for advertising the stores exclusive merchandise for customer retention.
Lammy 5y ago
This is such a silly "gotcha". Baby food has an expiration date and goes bad (some time after the expiration date, but still), so somebody is eating them even if they change hands a few times first. Nobody is just deciding baby food has value and exchanging it as currency based on that agreed-upon value. Only the Treasury is allowed to do that :) https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages... "Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are 'backed' by all the goods and services in the economy."
- nradov 5y ago
  Right it's Tide laundry detergent, not baby food, that pretty criminals use as currency. https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/ https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/
  - Lammy 5y ago
    Something that's even more shelf-stable, yeah, but it obviously still gets used unless you think people like the idea of their money turning to suds when it gets a little wet.
- mc32 5y ago
  "Baby formula" is often powdered. It has a longer shelf life. How is providing the exact evidence of how organized theft rings operate and steal baby formula in Tampa a "silly gotcha." It provides evidence showing the profitability of the endeavor.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    > It provides evidence showing the profitability of the endeavor. Yes, so obviously an endeavor nobody would undertake without an eventual buyer. Nobody with a hungry kid is going to care about an obvious "FOR SALE AT CVS ONLY" sticker on their cheap food. It's called a "fence" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal)
    - mc32 5y ago
      But that's the whole point. These thefts aren't people going hungry feeding hungry needy starving mouths. You have some people wanting to believe it's only people who have no other recourse to dying --they have to steal. No, most destitute poor people do not steal. They do without, go live with relatives, friends, beg, sell blood, dumpster dive, etc., but they're not gravitating toward UP boxcars. Those are run of the mill opportunist criminals.
tshaddox 5y ago
I mean, the reason it sounded sad at first blush is because it indicates that people can’t afford baby formula and diapers, which is obviously sad because those are vitally important items. But all you did was introduce one layer of money exchange, and money is super fungible. So the reason it’s sad literally hasn’t changed at all.
- Kalium 5y ago
  One of the reasons baby formula is in high demand is that WIC subsidies are generous but effectively set a price cap for many customers. If a business wants to make more money, they have to squeeze on the cost side. Buying stolen product can be a good way to cut costs on the supply side if you run a small and inefficient operation. I hope that helps clarify things for you! The reason it appears sad at first blush is not true, even with any number of financial exchanges in between. I found the article I linked previously to be highly educational on this subject.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    No, that’s still sad for the exact same reason.
    - Kalium 5y ago
      How so? As far as I can tell, this does not indicate that people can’t afford baby formula and diapers, quite important items. Instead the whole system works because the people who need them do have ready access to these vitally important items to keep their children safe, healthy, and happy because the WIC and Medicaid systems successfully perform their intended functions. I clearly have missed something.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > As far as I can tell, this does not indicate that people can’t afford baby formula and diapers It says that there is a significant enough segment of the market dependent on WIC to do so that it sets a price cap that drives market behavior enough to motivate sponsored theft by retailers as a means of keeping prices at a level that allow them to stay under the price cap of the WIC-dependent population. Which is exactly saying that a mass of people can't afford baby formula and diapers, at prices the market sets absent theft, even with existing public assistance for exactly that purpose.

by Kalium 5y ago

mc32 5y ago

Yes, this is why you get those stickers on items from CVS/Walgreens etc., that say not to be sold individually as well as intended for sale at "Store Name" because theft rigs are a thing.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Yes, this is why you get those stickers on items from CVS/Walgreens etc., that say not to be sold individually No, not to be sold individually is mostly from the manufacturer, and mostly about labelling requirements for sale. If the bundle meets the requirement but the contained packets do not, then the restriction is noted. > as well as intended for sale at "Store Name" That's mostly for advertising the stores exclusive merchandise for customer retention.

Lammy 5y ago

This is such a silly "gotcha". Baby food has an expiration date and goes bad (some time after the expiration date, but still), so somebody is eating them even if they change hands a few times first. Nobody is just deciding baby food has value and exchanging it as currency based on that agreed-upon value. Only the Treasury is allowed to do that :) https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages... "Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are 'backed' by all the goods and services in the economy."

nradov 5y ago
Right it's Tide laundry detergent, not baby food, that pretty criminals use as currency. https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/ https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/
- Lammy 5y ago
  Something that's even more shelf-stable, yeah, but it obviously still gets used unless you think people like the idea of their money turning to suds when it gets a little wet.
mc32 5y ago
"Baby formula" is often powdered. It has a longer shelf life. How is providing the exact evidence of how organized theft rings operate and steal baby formula in Tampa a "silly gotcha." It provides evidence showing the profitability of the endeavor.
- Lammy 5y ago
  > It provides evidence showing the profitability of the endeavor. Yes, so obviously an endeavor nobody would undertake without an eventual buyer. Nobody with a hungry kid is going to care about an obvious "FOR SALE AT CVS ONLY" sticker on their cheap food. It's called a "fence" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal)
  - mc32 5y ago
    But that's the whole point. These thefts aren't people going hungry feeding hungry needy starving mouths. You have some people wanting to believe it's only people who have no other recourse to dying --they have to steal. No, most destitute poor people do not steal. They do without, go live with relatives, friends, beg, sell blood, dumpster dive, etc., but they're not gravitating toward UP boxcars. Those are run of the mill opportunist criminals.

tshaddox 5y ago

I mean, the reason it sounded sad at first blush is because it indicates that people can’t afford baby formula and diapers, which is obviously sad because those are vitally important items. But all you did was introduce one layer of money exchange, and money is super fungible. So the reason it’s sad literally hasn’t changed at all.

Kalium 5y ago
One of the reasons baby formula is in high demand is that WIC subsidies are generous but effectively set a price cap for many customers. If a business wants to make more money, they have to squeeze on the cost side. Buying stolen product can be a good way to cut costs on the supply side if you run a small and inefficient operation. I hope that helps clarify things for you! The reason it appears sad at first blush is not true, even with any number of financial exchanges in between. I found the article I linked previously to be highly educational on this subject.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  No, that’s still sad for the exact same reason.
  - Kalium 5y ago
    How so? As far as I can tell, this does not indicate that people can’t afford baby formula and diapers, quite important items. Instead the whole system works because the people who need them do have ready access to these vitally important items to keep their children safe, healthy, and happy because the WIC and Medicaid systems successfully perform their intended functions. I clearly have missed something.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > As far as I can tell, this does not indicate that people can’t afford baby formula and diapers It says that there is a significant enough segment of the market dependent on WIC to do so that it sets a price cap that drives market behavior enough to motivate sponsored theft by retailers as a means of keeping prices at a level that allow them to stay under the price cap of the WIC-dependent population. Which is exactly saying that a mass of people can't afford baby formula and diapers, at prices the market sets absent theft, even with existing public assistance for exactly that purpose.