4 ms·

I like how you had to word it in terms of 5 years just to make it sound substantial... It's 3 dollars a month. You could be conservative with tissue paper and

I like how you had to word it in terms of 5 years just to make it sound substantial... It's 3 dollars a month. You could be conservative with tissue paper and make up the difference to your monthly budget... so how much cheaper can you get that cheaper than tissue paper and still expect the service to be around forever.

Dylan16807 5y ago
> I like how you had to word it in terms of 5 years just to make it sound substantial... Because I'm going to be using it for that long. > It's 3 dollars a month. For this single app. It's easy to justify $3 at a time, but suddenly you're paying a whole cable bill for marginal value. Decisions like this shouldn't be taken in complete isolation and rounded to zero. > and still expect the service to be around forever I don't want the service, just sell me the program. I could store my data in dropbox or microsoft or any email service or facebook. I could store it in S3 for 1 penny a month. I could pay 2/3 as much to get 100GB of space from google. The amount of money it takes to provide this service is completely disconnected from the cost, and the value I get is not from the service. The program is valuable, but I could buy a nice alternative program, avoid the pure-profit service, and buy myself something nice down the line. Maybe a higher tier GPU the next time I upgrade my computer. And I can only conserve so much tissue paper. One $3-per-month service could hold my data for thousands of apps. It's reasonable to ask me to have one such service. But I'm not paying once per app.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  > Because I'm going to be using it for that long. Cool, I'm planning to use it for a lifetime. The point is that you didn't just use the monthly number because it's extremely low as far as paid software subscriptions go... - And I don't do this: > Decisions like this shouldn't be taken in complete isolation and rounded to zero. So I don't end up worrying about: > For this single app. It's easy to justify $3 at a time, but suddenly you're paying a whole cable bill for marginal value. - > I don't want the service, just sell me the program. First off you literally just said: > Money for service is fine, but this is a long term thing, and I'm not going to pay $180 per 5 years to keep 100KB in sync. So clearly you want the service but feel it's too expensive... But secondly, software doesn't exist in a time bubble! Security updates, maintenance and support all exist and these are people trying to make a living while handling all that. It's super cool that you want to get their hard work in the most personally beneficial way, but they have this very reasonably priced service that lets the people have the software, and them have their livelihood. You can say "oh well I don't care about maintenance, I'll buy the new version if it's compatible with my OS", which again is super convenient for you... but once they hit plateaus in new users are they just supposed to pause development until old versions break? If the utility of the program was so low you wouldn't be asking them for it without the service after all... if it's "just storing 100kb of text" there's plenty of other options out there. 10 cents a day for something that saves a lot of stress is a great price.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > So clearly you want the service but feel it's too expensive... No, I don't. "Money for service" is fine as a principle. This particular service is something I don't want at all. Those can both be true at the same time. > But secondly, software doesn't exist in a time bubble! Security updates, maintenance and support all exist and these are people trying to make a living while handling all that. I'm happy to pay for software updates. But software is supposed to last more than 10-16 months. Which is how often you'd be paying a reasonable shelf price of 30-50 dollars. Generally software can be expected to last ten years without trouble. > very reasonably priced service What's your definition of reasonable here? $20 a month is a great deal if that's the price of security! So $20 a month would be reasonable by that metric. But I think we can both agree that's too high. So how do we decide? And it can't just be that low dollar amounts are automatically reasonable, because we're not rounding to zero. > If the utility of the program was so low you wouldn't be asking them for it without the service after all... if it's "just storing 100kb of text" there's plenty of other options out there. I'd say the utility of the program is worth a solid $30-50. The program does all the good stuff. The program isn't the service. The program manages my passwords, the service just syncs a tiny file. I can get the same syncing UX in most password managers just by logging into an existing account I already have. The stress of that one-time login is nothing. It's less stress than making a new account for 1password.
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      > No, I don't. "Money for service" is fine as a principle My mistake for assuming you were talking about the thing being talked about > What's your definition of reasonable here? $20 a month is a great deal if that's the price of security! So $20 a month would be reasonable by that metric. But I think we can both agree that's too high. So how do we decide? And it can't just be that low dollar amounts are automatically reasonable, because we're not rounding to zero. This entire paragraph is just asking me how to price software, which is already a very well covered topic and there's no answer that will fit in this comment (there's also no one person who knows a definitive answer to it). I mean part of why $3 is reasonable compared to $20 is less sticker shock... why is there less sticker shock for $3 but there is for $20? Why $9.99 instead of $10? > I'm happy to pay for software updates. But software is supposed to last more than 10-16 months. Which is how often you'd be paying a reasonable shelf price of 30-50 dollars. Generally software can be expected to last ten years without trouble. This still boils down to "what I want" while ignoring the reality the creators face. Like, software companies have gone with your reality, and before 10 years passes up and you feel like it's time to upgrade... they're gone! What you don't seem to understand is that the sustainability of the company has a premium here. It's not just $3 for passwords, it's $3 so I have confidence I'm not relying on 1password having indefinite growth to have people work there.
kjreact 5y ago
Just 3 dollars a month… if every piece of software I use on a daily basis cost me a few dollars then the usage cost would spiral out of control. Now many of us are software developers here on HN, so I understand the need to charge money for software. But I paid full price for 1Password6 years ago and I haven’t needed any updates to continue using it. Now the company refuses to sell a non-subscription service version and I’m suppose to be thankful that they’re “only” charging $3 a month? These types of subscriptions are purely highway robbery. I’d be happy to pay for upgrades if software needs to be updated to remain compatible with browser or OS updates, but let me decide whether I feel it’s necessary.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  > Just 3 dollars a month… if every piece of software I use on a daily basis cost me a few dollars then the usage cost would spiral out of control. This sounds so much pithier than it actually is, but of course every reply will say it. Does 1Password asking for 3 dollars make every other app on your computer suddenly need 3 dollars a month? Every piece of software needs its own plan for continued development. Some software you use exists because people work on it for free, some exists because massive ad-tech companies defiling the globe's privacy fund it, etc. - Paid subscriptions is one of those types, and as far as paid subscriptions go 3 dollars a month is bottom of the barrel. Like if every paid subscription you had was 3 dollars how would your bills look? Many MANY companies have tried one time payments and died over it. People are allergic to upfront payment. People just might not have the funds to pay a fair price all at once. A tech forum isn't exactly where to get perspective on that for example... 1Password clearly tried the one time payment model, and if I had to imagine for a second, I bet you one-time payment users ended up being some of their most expensive users since they had to manage disparate sync schemes. Now at least subscription users can subsides that cost a bit...
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > Every piece of software needs its own plan for continued development. It does. But if we're talking about just the software, I don't think updates to an already-finished password manager are worth nearly that much. Microsoft used to sell upgrades for their entire OS for $3 a month, released once every 3 years.

Dylan16807 5y ago

> I like how you had to word it in terms of 5 years just to make it sound substantial... Because I'm going to be using it for that long. > It's 3 dollars a month. For this single app. It's easy to justify $3 at a time, but suddenly you're paying a whole cable bill for marginal value. Decisions like this shouldn't be taken in complete isolation and rounded to zero. > and still expect the service to be around forever I don't want the service, just sell me the program. I could store my data in dropbox or microsoft or any email service or facebook. I could store it in S3 for 1 penny a month. I could pay 2/3 as much to get 100GB of space from google. The amount of money it takes to provide this service is completely disconnected from the cost, and the value I get is not from the service. The program is valuable, but I could buy a nice alternative program, avoid the pure-profit service, and buy myself something nice down the line. Maybe a higher tier GPU the next time I upgrade my computer. And I can only conserve so much tissue paper. One $3-per-month service could hold my data for thousands of apps. It's reasonable to ask me to have one such service. But I'm not paying once per app.

BoorishBears 5y ago
> Because I'm going to be using it for that long. Cool, I'm planning to use it for a lifetime. The point is that you didn't just use the monthly number because it's extremely low as far as paid software subscriptions go... - And I don't do this: > Decisions like this shouldn't be taken in complete isolation and rounded to zero. So I don't end up worrying about: > For this single app. It's easy to justify $3 at a time, but suddenly you're paying a whole cable bill for marginal value. - > I don't want the service, just sell me the program. First off you literally just said: > Money for service is fine, but this is a long term thing, and I'm not going to pay $180 per 5 years to keep 100KB in sync. So clearly you want the service but feel it's too expensive... But secondly, software doesn't exist in a time bubble! Security updates, maintenance and support all exist and these are people trying to make a living while handling all that. It's super cool that you want to get their hard work in the most personally beneficial way, but they have this very reasonably priced service that lets the people have the software, and them have their livelihood. You can say "oh well I don't care about maintenance, I'll buy the new version if it's compatible with my OS", which again is super convenient for you... but once they hit plateaus in new users are they just supposed to pause development until old versions break? If the utility of the program was so low you wouldn't be asking them for it without the service after all... if it's "just storing 100kb of text" there's plenty of other options out there. 10 cents a day for something that saves a lot of stress is a great price.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > So clearly you want the service but feel it's too expensive... No, I don't. "Money for service" is fine as a principle. This particular service is something I don't want at all. Those can both be true at the same time. > But secondly, software doesn't exist in a time bubble! Security updates, maintenance and support all exist and these are people trying to make a living while handling all that. I'm happy to pay for software updates. But software is supposed to last more than 10-16 months. Which is how often you'd be paying a reasonable shelf price of 30-50 dollars. Generally software can be expected to last ten years without trouble. > very reasonably priced service What's your definition of reasonable here? $20 a month is a great deal if that's the price of security! So $20 a month would be reasonable by that metric. But I think we can both agree that's too high. So how do we decide? And it can't just be that low dollar amounts are automatically reasonable, because we're not rounding to zero. > If the utility of the program was so low you wouldn't be asking them for it without the service after all... if it's "just storing 100kb of text" there's plenty of other options out there. I'd say the utility of the program is worth a solid $30-50. The program does all the good stuff. The program isn't the service. The program manages my passwords, the service just syncs a tiny file. I can get the same syncing UX in most password managers just by logging into an existing account I already have. The stress of that one-time login is nothing. It's less stress than making a new account for 1password.
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    > No, I don't. "Money for service" is fine as a principle My mistake for assuming you were talking about the thing being talked about > What's your definition of reasonable here? $20 a month is a great deal if that's the price of security! So $20 a month would be reasonable by that metric. But I think we can both agree that's too high. So how do we decide? And it can't just be that low dollar amounts are automatically reasonable, because we're not rounding to zero. This entire paragraph is just asking me how to price software, which is already a very well covered topic and there's no answer that will fit in this comment (there's also no one person who knows a definitive answer to it). I mean part of why $3 is reasonable compared to $20 is less sticker shock... why is there less sticker shock for $3 but there is for $20? Why $9.99 instead of $10? > I'm happy to pay for software updates. But software is supposed to last more than 10-16 months. Which is how often you'd be paying a reasonable shelf price of 30-50 dollars. Generally software can be expected to last ten years without trouble. This still boils down to "what I want" while ignoring the reality the creators face. Like, software companies have gone with your reality, and before 10 years passes up and you feel like it's time to upgrade... they're gone! What you don't seem to understand is that the sustainability of the company has a premium here. It's not just $3 for passwords, it's $3 so I have confidence I'm not relying on 1password having indefinite growth to have people work there.

kjreact 5y ago

Just 3 dollars a month… if every piece of software I use on a daily basis cost me a few dollars then the usage cost would spiral out of control. Now many of us are software developers here on HN, so I understand the need to charge money for software. But I paid full price for 1Password6 years ago and I haven’t needed any updates to continue using it. Now the company refuses to sell a non-subscription service version and I’m suppose to be thankful that they’re “only” charging $3 a month? These types of subscriptions are purely highway robbery. I’d be happy to pay for upgrades if software needs to be updated to remain compatible with browser or OS updates, but let me decide whether I feel it’s necessary.

BoorishBears 5y ago
> Just 3 dollars a month… if every piece of software I use on a daily basis cost me a few dollars then the usage cost would spiral out of control. This sounds so much pithier than it actually is, but of course every reply will say it. Does 1Password asking for 3 dollars make every other app on your computer suddenly need 3 dollars a month? Every piece of software needs its own plan for continued development. Some software you use exists because people work on it for free, some exists because massive ad-tech companies defiling the globe's privacy fund it, etc. - Paid subscriptions is one of those types, and as far as paid subscriptions go 3 dollars a month is bottom of the barrel. Like if every paid subscription you had was 3 dollars how would your bills look? Many MANY companies have tried one time payments and died over it. People are allergic to upfront payment. People just might not have the funds to pay a fair price all at once. A tech forum isn't exactly where to get perspective on that for example... 1Password clearly tried the one time payment model, and if I had to imagine for a second, I bet you one-time payment users ended up being some of their most expensive users since they had to manage disparate sync schemes. Now at least subscription users can subsides that cost a bit...
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > Every piece of software needs its own plan for continued development. It does. But if we're talking about just the software, I don't think updates to an already-finished password manager are worth nearly that much. Microsoft used to sell upgrades for their entire OS for $3 a month, released once every 3 years.