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Are Customer Satisfaction Engineers really engineers? Are software architects really architects? Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor? Edit: apparently that
by psyc 5y ago
Are Customer Satisfaction Engineers really engineers? Are software architects really architects? Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor?
Edit: apparently that should have been “Is a MD a real doctor?” TIL :D
The only reason this dumb question refuses to die is that software developers can actually borrow and apply approaches from “real” engineering. The difference is that “we” do not have to, either to be successful, or to be in compliance with any regulation or cultural expectation (with exceptions).
I’m also generally annoyed by the retroactive continuity of it all. “Software Engineer” started as a job title chosen by HR on a per-company, not industry-wide, basis, and not as a flavor of Professional Engineering. We’re probably closer to that aspiration now (unevenly distributed) but it still stinks of post hoc justification.
- philosopher1234 5y ago>Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor Nitpick, but yes, actually "doctor" comes from the latin "to teach" and originally refers to doctor of philosophy, and has been co-opted for MDs. The real question is "are mds (who dont teach) real doctors?"
- Cd00d 5y agoThat's interesting. Though, I'm not a fan of the notion that I'm no longer a Dr. after leaving academia post PhD. But, that's just my emotional take, and doesn't counter your origination history.
- Supermancho 5y ago> I'm no longer a Dr. after leaving academia post PhD "Does a PhD thesis have to be novel?" - I don't care how you slice that answer, even if you were confirming/revisiting existing studies. If you have a PhD, you contributed to human knowledge in either the master or PhD theses, imo.
- xtracto 5y agoHey, I did my PhD more than 10 years ago, and I've taught more in my time in industry than what I could have taught in academia.
- qudat 5y agoI would argue that physicians are actually engineers. They are applying medical sciences. Just like software engineering is the application of computer science. It’s the truest definition I’ve been able to think of.
- netizen-936824 5y agoPhysicians are repair techs for humans Engineers design and create, physicians fix problems and do maintenance.
- psyc 5y ago> The real question is "are mds (who dont teach) real doctors? This makes my day!
- jimmyvalmer 5y agoactually "doctor" comes from the latin "to teach" There's only one robust doctor test and it doesn't involve etymology. If someone else's mother refers to you as such, then you're a doctor.
- klodolph 5y agoTo add to this, you'll see different degrees for research vs. professional practice doctorates in various fields. For example, you can get a Ph.D. in psychology, or a Psy.D. in psychology. Generally speaking, Ph.D. is for psychology researchers and Psy.D. is for professional psychologists. Similarly in law, a J.D. is often part of the process of becoming a lawyer, and a J.S.D. is for someone who wants to do research.
- jolmg 5y agoI hadn't noticed the weird parallel where Japan also uses one word, "sensei" in their case, for both teacher and medical doctor.
- chrisseaton 5y ago> Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor? ‘Doctor’ means someone who’s learned enough to teach. Many physicians calling themselves doctor don’t actually have any kind of doctorate at all and only get the title as a curtesy due to their own profession’s historical fears of lacking one.
- ratww 5y agoInterestingly, in Brazil practicing lawyers who passed the bar exam are also called "doctors" due to an Imperial decree from 1825, that was also a courtesy to them from the then Emperor.
- MattGaiser 5y agoIndeed. Real engineering is mostly defined by regulatory rules. Crappy bridges and unsafe factories existed before the government regulated it.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- masswerk 5y agoThe Doctor of Philosophy is a somewhat unlucky example, since this really goes back to the original trivium. Medicine, on the other hand, is an applied science (so, strictly speaking, if you're not bound to teaching…).
- SeanLuke 5y ago> Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor? Actually, a Doctor of Philosophy is the only real doctor.
- chrisseaton 5y agoWell also Doctor of Engineering etc.
- auxym 5y agoThat's a PhD (in engineering). Non-phd doctorates I'm aware of would be MD, Psy. D, JD.
- chrisseaton 5y agoNo it's an EngD. Maybe it's a Commonwealth thing.
- SeanLuke 5y agoThey exist in the US too. There ain't nothin' wrong with an EngD, it's a great terminal degree. But the Doctor of Engineering is not a doctor in the sense being discussed here. Why? Because the definition of a doctor is (or was) someone with a license to teach at an institution of higher learning. That's not the aim of an EngD, at least in the US and many other places: its goal is explicitly to produce an engineer who will use his knowledge in the real world. The same thing goes for EdD, DPA, etc. These are professional degrees, not teaching/research degrees.
- exdsq 5y agoYou can become a chartered engineer with a background in software engineering so it is a 'real flavor' of Professional Engineering. I'm studying for the CSQE which is a Certification on Software Quality Engineering from the same body that awards regular quality engineering certificates and I've been pretty surprised/happy with the focus it has on processes that allow for reproducible quality, metrics to monitor software improvements, and its general depth on testing as a whole (for example state machine, property, and model-based testing).
- 4rt 5y agoDo you have any good links about this please? It's interesting how the traditional standards bodies are adapting to the new tech.
- wheelinsupial 5y agoThey might be referring to the American Society of Quality: https://asq.org/cert/software-quality-engineer https://asq.org/cert/software-quality-engineer It's not equivalent to a software engineer in Canada: https://www.egbc.ca/Registration/Individual-Registrants/How-to-Apply/Professional-Membership-and-Licence/Engineer-First-Time-Applying-in-Canada/Software-Engineering-Applicants https://www.egbc.ca/Registration/Individual-Registrants/How-... This may be different in other countries. I worked in manufacturing and there were P.Eng. holding mechanical and industrial engineers that held ASQ certifications on top of but not as substitutes for their P.Eng.
- blippage 5y agoWhen you go to the doctors, the title "doctor" is a "customary title". They don't hold doctorates. You'll notice that surgeons are usually called "mister". Perhaps it stems from how the two professions arose. In ye olden days, a lot of surgery was performed by barbers. So when people ask if someone is a "real" doctor, their actual understanding is the wrong way around. In their minds, the words "Philosophy" in PhD somehow means they aren't proper doctors. Note that there are also higher doctorates, such as DSc (doctor of science, which will be specifically scientific), DD (doctor of divinity), etc.. I don't think I've ever met someone with a higher doctorate, though.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago> You'll notice that surgeons are usually called "mister". Will I? So far I haven't... (I'm in the US, though, and from your comment history I think you might be in the UK? Does it differ between countries?)
- chrisseaton 5y agoIn the UK fully qualified doctors are called 'mr' or 'ms' - only baby doctors are called 'doctor'.
- blippage 5y agoYes, I'm from UK.