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What's funny is the principals of what modern progresive intellectuals find right or wrong were introduced by Abrahamic (specifically Christian) teachings. Befo

What's funny is the principals of what modern progresive intellectuals find right or wrong were introduced by Abrahamic (specifically Christian) teachings. Before that, the whole framework of the poor or meek being something everyone should protect wasn't a common idea. Even devout Atheists are basically Christian philosophers with scientific faith replacing theistic faith.

fartcannon 5y ago
Is it necessary for all Atheists to have faith in science? Science is a process to figure out the universe, not a thing/person/god. It's not the only way to know stuff, its just a good way. If the argument is that some people say Science as if it was some god, well, not much I can argue against there. Certainly not all atheists though. Otherwise, I agree that modern people took some of the good stuff old religions. It's so hard to know the truth, even about ourselves.
FredPret 5y ago
Nietzsche wrote a fascinating book about this - The Genealogy of Morals. If I remember correctly, he uses the ancient city of Rome as a symbol of the pre-Abrahamic, natural han ethic. Power is good, sex is good, wealth is good, strength is good, competence is good. This contrasts with the Jerusalem ethic where an almighty god is worshipped, not perched on a mountain or a cloud, but while nailed to a cross. So now self-sacrifice is good, and the whole story revolves around the weak, the poor, the downtrodden. We’re still in the Jerusalem phase, despite having replaced the church with the state. Perhaps one day, in a few millennia, the wheel will turn back around. It’s a good book!
rvense 5y ago
It says somewhere that there is nothing new under the sun... Christianity, including its ethics, obviously also had sources and influences. Both in its inception and as it has changed, fractured and adapted to its surroundings over time. And if you truly think that Jesus invented helping the poor and acting righteous, I can only recommend you read about religions. Both those that influenced Christianity and those that never came into contact with it.
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  > It says somewhere that there is nothing new under the sun... Ah yes, that's most of Ecclesiastes. Everything is meaningless. King Solomon sometimes comes across as a bit of whinger, but then what do you expect if you're ultra-rich and bored and questioning the meaning of it all. I agree that many aspects of Christianity have precedent. The one rather novel thing that it introduced was the concept of a God who would voluntarily suffer excruciating punishment so that we wouldn't have to.
marcan_42 5y ago
faith /feɪθ/ 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Science is not something you have faith in. The entire point of science is allowing your beliefs to change when presented with evidence. That's the exact opposite of "complete trust". If anything, the only thing you need to have faith in is in the validity of your own experience - and that's a philosophical dilemma, not a scientific one. Doing science means knowing we're probably wrong and will learn something new tomorrow - but we're probably at least a little bit right and that will have made our lives better until now.
- gottebp 5y ago
  The axioms at the foundation of modern science are also accepted by faith. How do you prove an axiom? Follow the philosophical tree a little deeper and see if you can prove the foundation.
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    I think you're talking about the axioms which form the modern foundation of mathematics, but mathematics isn't a science, at least not in the sense I'm referring to. Mathematics is a tool; it does not aim to describe the world, but rather provides a toolbox useful for doing so. It doesn't work the same way science based on observation does. There is no faith involved, but rather just arbitrary choices that result in a useful end result. That's good enough. It's like a protocol standard we all use because it makes our life easier. You don't need faith in HTTP to use it. If you mean the foundations of the scientific method, e.g. things like trusting your perception of the world (to some extent), that indeed crosses over from science into philosophy. But that does not invalidate the scientific method, not does it mean all of science is faith-based; it just means we had to make some assumptions to be able to accomplish anything at all. Those assumptions are still something we can and should question, we just don't have any good way of testing them.
    - gottebp 5y ago
      More towards the latter portion of your writing. Science is a branch of philosophy after all. It has axioms such as: "The world is objective, orderly, and comprehensible." It assumes the existence of the laws of logic, and their immutability. Take those away and the whole edifice collapses. https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/48844/axioms-in-science-and-the-scientific-method https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/48844/axioms-...

fartcannon 5y ago

Is it necessary for all Atheists to have faith in science? Science is a process to figure out the universe, not a thing/person/god. It's not the only way to know stuff, its just a good way. If the argument is that some people say Science as if it was some god, well, not much I can argue against there. Certainly not all atheists though. Otherwise, I agree that modern people took some of the good stuff old religions. It's so hard to know the truth, even about ourselves.

FredPret 5y ago

Nietzsche wrote a fascinating book about this - The Genealogy of Morals. If I remember correctly, he uses the ancient city of Rome as a symbol of the pre-Abrahamic, natural han ethic. Power is good, sex is good, wealth is good, strength is good, competence is good. This contrasts with the Jerusalem ethic where an almighty god is worshipped, not perched on a mountain or a cloud, but while nailed to a cross. So now self-sacrifice is good, and the whole story revolves around the weak, the poor, the downtrodden. We’re still in the Jerusalem phase, despite having replaced the church with the state. Perhaps one day, in a few millennia, the wheel will turn back around. It’s a good book!

rvense 5y ago

It says somewhere that there is nothing new under the sun... Christianity, including its ethics, obviously also had sources and influences. Both in its inception and as it has changed, fractured and adapted to its surroundings over time. And if you truly think that Jesus invented helping the poor and acting righteous, I can only recommend you read about religions. Both those that influenced Christianity and those that never came into contact with it.

mnw21cam 5y ago
> It says somewhere that there is nothing new under the sun... Ah yes, that's most of Ecclesiastes. Everything is meaningless. King Solomon sometimes comes across as a bit of whinger, but then what do you expect if you're ultra-rich and bored and questioning the meaning of it all. I agree that many aspects of Christianity have precedent. The one rather novel thing that it introduced was the concept of a God who would voluntarily suffer excruciating punishment so that we wouldn't have to.

marcan_42 5y ago

faith /feɪθ/ 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Science is not something you have faith in. The entire point of science is allowing your beliefs to change when presented with evidence. That's the exact opposite of "complete trust". If anything, the only thing you need to have faith in is in the validity of your own experience - and that's a philosophical dilemma, not a scientific one. Doing science means knowing we're probably wrong and will learn something new tomorrow - but we're probably at least a little bit right and that will have made our lives better until now.

gottebp 5y ago
The axioms at the foundation of modern science are also accepted by faith. How do you prove an axiom? Follow the philosophical tree a little deeper and see if you can prove the foundation.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  I think you're talking about the axioms which form the modern foundation of mathematics, but mathematics isn't a science, at least not in the sense I'm referring to. Mathematics is a tool; it does not aim to describe the world, but rather provides a toolbox useful for doing so. It doesn't work the same way science based on observation does. There is no faith involved, but rather just arbitrary choices that result in a useful end result. That's good enough. It's like a protocol standard we all use because it makes our life easier. You don't need faith in HTTP to use it. If you mean the foundations of the scientific method, e.g. things like trusting your perception of the world (to some extent), that indeed crosses over from science into philosophy. But that does not invalidate the scientific method, not does it mean all of science is faith-based; it just means we had to make some assumptions to be able to accomplish anything at all. Those assumptions are still something we can and should question, we just don't have any good way of testing them.
  - gottebp 5y ago
    More towards the latter portion of your writing. Science is a branch of philosophy after all. It has axioms such as: "The world is objective, orderly, and comprehensible." It assumes the existence of the laws of logic, and their immutability. Take those away and the whole edifice collapses. https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/48844/axioms-in-science-and-the-scientific-method https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/48844/axioms-...