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Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pr

Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same with phones. And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.

iomcr 5y ago
> And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want. We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.
tharkun__ 5y ago
That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays. Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.
- dspillett 5y ago
  > Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround Then get it from *ahem* elsewhere, you've paid for access to that content in that quality, if they can't provide that… Maybe if enough do that they'll fix the problem, so they can start tracking your use of the content again when you return to consuming it their way.
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! I've looked into this, but this option is really not great, either: - Large Monitors are unavailable or (if you use business monitors) a lot more expensive and usually don't have latest panel tech. - You'll loose surround sound and also 4K on most platforms - The integration is usually worse (you'll have to start more devices, if you're lucky CEC decides to work) - Good luck with HDR I personally settled for a SmartTV behind a PiHole-equivalent, but an Apple TV or an Android TV combined with an offline smart TV are good contenders, too. Unfortunately, there's really no silver bullet right now.
  - weq 5y ago
    - Shamii 5y ago
      I'm a software engineer because I love technology. Your opinion is fine don't get me wrong but my 4k 55" OLED tv is really really impressive. It's a marvelous picture. My DSLR images look brilliant on it, games do as well, HDR is surprising ly nice as well. We watch most tv shows still on a 10 year old 720p beamer due to image size. 110" is still more immersive than 55". But I do expect being able to buy 110" 4k in a few years either through a more affordable 4k projector or by microled panels. I can't follow your 4k = full of propaganda Point. Not sure what you mean by it.
rurp 5y ago
> my device, my rules Exactly. Companies that actually care about security don't bundle those updates with major breaking UX changes.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Which companies are those?
R0b0t1 5y ago
It already is illegal to do so. Just claim damages against the TV manufacturer, likely the whole price of the TV or a comparable replacement.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  I'm saying there should be a law where the govt punishes the company. If the law needs me as an individual consumer to procure my own team of lawyers to go up against a multinational every time I buy a new TV, then that law might as well not exist.
  - db48x 5y ago
    The damages would probably only qualify for small–claims court. These cases don’t take much time to present or judge, and the evidence you need is quite straight forward. Consulting with a lawyer on the matter, if you wanted that extra assurance, wouldn’t cost much.
    - brokenmachine 5y ago
      I was exaggerating a bit for effect. I consider my time for a day off work, travel to court, preparation, irritation, etc more than the value of the TV, and they probably wouldn't pay me damages for those things. The point is that I shouldn't have to do that as an individual for every purchase. We need a blanket rule that they can't remotely modify purchased items in a way that cannot be rolled-back by the consumer to the functionality at the time of purchase.
      - db48x 5y ago
        I agree with you there, but you won’t get it if you don’t force them to refund you. Things will just continue as they are.
      - amelius 5y ago
        Just buy the company-tethered stuff and return it. It's your right as a consumer, and one of the few ways to take action and make it hurt.
slowmovintarget 5y ago
Heh... Microsoft, Apple, and Google will have a lot to say about that. And by "say" I mean "spend gobs of money lobbying against it."
cmcconomy 5y ago
My Vizio TV updated itself a month ago, and I only noticed because changed the default behaviour of which input to open on when it turns on, which was really irritating. After finding the menu entry to fix it, that in particular was no longer an issue. However, around the same time, my PC input began to blank out for a second at a time at random intervals which was very irritating. On a lark I performed a factory reset and didn't set up my wifi credentials, and it hasnt misbehaved since.

iomcr 5y ago

> And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want. We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.

tharkun__ 5y ago

That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays. Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.

dspillett 5y ago
> Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround Then get it from *ahem* elsewhere, you've paid for access to that content in that quality, if they can't provide that… Maybe if enough do that they'll fix the problem, so they can start tracking your use of the content again when you return to consuming it their way.
Sebb767 5y ago
> TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! I've looked into this, but this option is really not great, either: - Large Monitors are unavailable or (if you use business monitors) a lot more expensive and usually don't have latest panel tech. - You'll loose surround sound and also 4K on most platforms - The integration is usually worse (you'll have to start more devices, if you're lucky CEC decides to work) - Good luck with HDR I personally settled for a SmartTV behind a PiHole-equivalent, but an Apple TV or an Android TV combined with an offline smart TV are good contenders, too. Unfortunately, there's really no silver bullet right now.
- weq 5y ago
  - Shamii 5y ago
    I'm a software engineer because I love technology. Your opinion is fine don't get me wrong but my 4k 55" OLED tv is really really impressive. It's a marvelous picture. My DSLR images look brilliant on it, games do as well, HDR is surprising ly nice as well. We watch most tv shows still on a 10 year old 720p beamer due to image size. 110" is still more immersive than 55". But I do expect being able to buy 110" 4k in a few years either through a more affordable 4k projector or by microled panels. I can't follow your 4k = full of propaganda Point. Not sure what you mean by it.

rurp 5y ago

> my device, my rules Exactly. Companies that actually care about security don't bundle those updates with major breaking UX changes.

dotancohen 5y ago
Which companies are those?

R0b0t1 5y ago

It already is illegal to do so. Just claim damages against the TV manufacturer, likely the whole price of the TV or a comparable replacement.

brokenmachine 5y ago
I'm saying there should be a law where the govt punishes the company. If the law needs me as an individual consumer to procure my own team of lawyers to go up against a multinational every time I buy a new TV, then that law might as well not exist.
- db48x 5y ago
  The damages would probably only qualify for small–claims court. These cases don’t take much time to present or judge, and the evidence you need is quite straight forward. Consulting with a lawyer on the matter, if you wanted that extra assurance, wouldn’t cost much.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    I was exaggerating a bit for effect. I consider my time for a day off work, travel to court, preparation, irritation, etc more than the value of the TV, and they probably wouldn't pay me damages for those things. The point is that I shouldn't have to do that as an individual for every purchase. We need a blanket rule that they can't remotely modify purchased items in a way that cannot be rolled-back by the consumer to the functionality at the time of purchase.
    - db48x 5y ago
      I agree with you there, but you won’t get it if you don’t force them to refund you. Things will just continue as they are.
    - amelius 5y ago
      Just buy the company-tethered stuff and return it. It's your right as a consumer, and one of the few ways to take action and make it hurt.

slowmovintarget 5y ago

Heh... Microsoft, Apple, and Google will have a lot to say about that. And by "say" I mean "spend gobs of money lobbying against it."

cmcconomy 5y ago

My Vizio TV updated itself a month ago, and I only noticed because changed the default behaviour of which input to open on when it turns on, which was really irritating. After finding the menu entry to fix it, that in particular was no longer an issue. However, around the same time, my PC input began to blank out for a second at a time at random intervals which was very irritating. On a lark I performed a factory reset and didn't set up my wifi credentials, and it hasnt misbehaved since.