3 ms·

Does this mean that online poker is effectively over?

paxys 5y ago
Chess has been "solved" by computers for a long time now, yet the online Chess community is bigger than ever. I don't see why it would be any different for Poker.
- fdgsdfogijq 5y ago
  Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. And if computers are superior, the game breaks down.
  - robrenaud 5y ago
    You are worried that people will cheat in online poker, or what? For poker, people can still play face to face, and it being a game of mixed strategies means it's probably a lot less important that poker bots are better than people than in chess. Top chess players use the computers to set up preparation bombs on their opponents, with rebuttals to moves for specific positions created by the computers. That doesn't work in a game of imperfect information and mixed strategies.
    - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
      >You are worried that people will cheat in online poker, or what? The norm for online chess is to not play for money, whereas the norm for online poker is to play for money, often for large sums. Of course the game with higher stakes is more likely to attract cheaters.
      - paxys 5y ago
        > whereas the norm for online poker is to play for money, often for large sums That is definitely not the norm. Most people are playing recreationally. Heck it is illegal to pay poker online with real money in 44/50 states in the US.
        cortesoft 5y ago
        Yeah, but playing poker for not real money is a very different game. Players have no incentive to not take huge risks, so it is a completely different game.
        eurasiantiger 5y ago
        And how do you suppose they enforce that?
  - rainonmoon 5y ago
    Poker is not really all about money. Plenty of games might only ask you to stake like $5 but the joy and aim of the game is really to outplay the table, not take home $25.
    - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
      For the purpose of AI "conquering" poker the money makes a huge difference. Would you play the same way if you were betting your life savings versus $5?
      - DennisP 5y ago
        No, but my play would deteriorate at the high stakes. A computer would play the most optimal strategy it can regardless.
  - throwaway287391 5y ago
    > Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. I don't see this, I used to really enjoy online poker tournaments for play-money. It's a fun and strategic game in and of itself with nothing more than minor bragging rights on the line, to me at least. I honestly don't see why it should be any different from chess in terms of purely recreational play. (You could say chess is a deeper game, and that's probably true in some ways, but that's not a positive feature for casuals like me with no desire to invest many hours/years into mastering the game.)
- vanusa 5y ago
  Unlike with chess, in the poker world there's a huge financial incentive to run bots (or provide bot assistance to live players).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- abaldwin99 5y ago
  The difference for poker is it takes a lot more play time to sort players by skill. There's no ELO to climb and thus you don't get to play against more challenging opponents. e.g. I'll lose 100% of my matches against a Chess GM but against the best poker player in the world I could go all in preflop every hand and still win the match ~20% of the time. Only way to counter this variance is to play lots and lots of hands (Law of large numbers) It could take weeks/months in a single matchup to determine the better poker player. In terms of playing for real money, in general you'll find more challenging competition at higher stakes. But then there's an incentive for bots.
jstx1 5y ago
It's kind of dead-ish because there aren't big edges and most people who play online are decent enough. Online poker has been deteriorating for years (with maybe a small uptick due to the pandemic). But this article could have been written a few years ago, there's nothing new in it.
- redisman 5y ago
  Ever since the US outlawed it it’s been dead-ish

Chess has been "solved" by computers for a long time now, yet the online Chess community is bigger than ever. I don't see why it would be any different for Poker.

fdgsdfogijq 5y ago
Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. And if computers are superior, the game breaks down.
- robrenaud 5y ago
  You are worried that people will cheat in online poker, or what? For poker, people can still play face to face, and it being a game of mixed strategies means it's probably a lot less important that poker bots are better than people than in chess. Top chess players use the computers to set up preparation bombs on their opponents, with rebuttals to moves for specific positions created by the computers. That doesn't work in a game of imperfect information and mixed strategies.
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    >You are worried that people will cheat in online poker, or what? The norm for online chess is to not play for money, whereas the norm for online poker is to play for money, often for large sums. Of course the game with higher stakes is more likely to attract cheaters.
    - paxys 5y ago
      > whereas the norm for online poker is to play for money, often for large sums That is definitely not the norm. Most people are playing recreationally. Heck it is illegal to pay poker online with real money in 44/50 states in the US.
      - cortesoft 5y ago
        Yeah, but playing poker for not real money is a very different game. Players have no incentive to not take huge risks, so it is a completely different game.
      - eurasiantiger 5y ago
        And how do you suppose they enforce that?
- rainonmoon 5y ago
  Poker is not really all about money. Plenty of games might only ask you to stake like $5 but the joy and aim of the game is really to outplay the table, not take home $25.
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    For the purpose of AI "conquering" poker the money makes a huge difference. Would you play the same way if you were betting your life savings versus $5?
    - DennisP 5y ago
      No, but my play would deteriorate at the high stakes. A computer would play the most optimal strategy it can regardless.
- throwaway287391 5y ago
  > Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. I don't see this, I used to really enjoy online poker tournaments for play-money. It's a fun and strategic game in and of itself with nothing more than minor bragging rights on the line, to me at least. I honestly don't see why it should be any different from chess in terms of purely recreational play. (You could say chess is a deeper game, and that's probably true in some ways, but that's not a positive feature for casuals like me with no desire to invest many hours/years into mastering the game.)
vanusa 5y ago
Unlike with chess, in the poker world there's a huge financial incentive to run bots (or provide bot assistance to live players).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
abaldwin99 5y ago
The difference for poker is it takes a lot more play time to sort players by skill. There's no ELO to climb and thus you don't get to play against more challenging opponents. e.g. I'll lose 100% of my matches against a Chess GM but against the best poker player in the world I could go all in preflop every hand and still win the match ~20% of the time. Only way to counter this variance is to play lots and lots of hands (Law of large numbers) It could take weeks/months in a single matchup to determine the better poker player. In terms of playing for real money, in general you'll find more challenging competition at higher stakes. But then there's an incentive for bots.

jstx1 5y ago

It's kind of dead-ish because there aren't big edges and most people who play online are decent enough. Online poker has been deteriorating for years (with maybe a small uptick due to the pandemic). But this article could have been written a few years ago, there's nothing new in it.

redisman 5y ago
Ever since the US outlawed it it’s been dead-ish