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I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The

I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.

lupire 5y ago
Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. (Cue next rant about class-action settlements. To make me whole, Sony would have needed to give me a full refund (with interest) or restore Linux compatibility.)
- flerchin 5y ago
  I got a check for $3.02.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - pooper 5y ago
    I still haven't gotten my check from the iPhone 6 battery scandal. I still have the phone. It is forever stuck on the wall now. They have no incentive to hurry up I guess.
    - CoastalCoder 5y ago
      IANAL, but I've heard that if you let the court know about situations like this, they'll often provide the necessary motivation to the responsible parties.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    I suspect that in terms of actual value lost and never properly compensated, this kind of thing is second-largest source of property theft in our economy, right after all the unpaid wages. Just serves to remind that whenever we talk of governments protecting property rights, it's always worth clarifying whose rights they are actually protecting, and who is SOL.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware. I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished. The flexibility is valuable. For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same with phones. And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.
  - iomcr 5y ago
    > And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want. We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays. Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.
BTCOG 5y ago
This is precisely the reason why prior to linux support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it only took a couple months after they removed the linux support.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  Upon which we found out that not supporting Linux on the PS3 slim from the get go "because they wanted to focus on games and it was too much effort" was a lie - turns out there was almost nothing extra that needed to be done for it to work on that model too, once the hacks were in place.
sli 5y ago
Absolutely agree. I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.
theshrike79 5y ago
IIRC the Linux support was there solely so that Sony could circumvent tariffs in the EU. Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.

lupire 5y ago

Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.

CoastalCoder 5y ago
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. (Cue next rant about class-action settlements. To make me whole, Sony would have needed to give me a full refund (with interest) or restore Linux compatibility.)
flerchin 5y ago
I got a check for $3.02.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pooper 5y ago
  I still haven't gotten my check from the iPhone 6 battery scandal. I still have the phone. It is forever stuck on the wall now. They have no incentive to hurry up I guess.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    IANAL, but I've heard that if you let the court know about situations like this, they'll often provide the necessary motivation to the responsible parties.
- int_19h 5y ago
  I suspect that in terms of actual value lost and never properly compensated, this kind of thing is second-largest source of property theft in our economy, right after all the unpaid wages. Just serves to remind that whenever we talk of governments protecting property rights, it's always worth clarifying whose rights they are actually protecting, and who is SOL.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware. I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished. The flexibility is valuable. For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.

brokenmachine 5y ago
Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same with phones. And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.
- iomcr 5y ago
  > And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want. We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays. Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.

BTCOG 5y ago

This is precisely the reason why prior to linux support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it only took a couple months after they removed the linux support.

marcan_42 5y ago
Upon which we found out that not supporting Linux on the PS3 slim from the get go "because they wanted to focus on games and it was too much effort" was a lie - turns out there was almost nothing extra that needed to be done for it to work on that model too, once the hacks were in place.

sli 5y ago

Absolutely agree. I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.

theshrike79 5y ago

IIRC the Linux support was there solely so that Sony could circumvent tariffs in the EU. Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.