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Not the guy you are asking, and won't cite due to time constraints, but here is the tldr. In Vietnam, one nation had a dream. It dreamt of MIG-21s falling out o
by throw1234651234 5y ago
Not the guy you are asking, and won't cite due to time constraints, but here is the tldr. In Vietnam, one nation had a dream. It dreamt of MIG-21s falling out of the sky before they even saw the US fighter. That fighter was the F-4 and it did not get a cannon. It did not get a cannon, because its missiles were so advanced that it did not need one - it would spot the MIG-21/19 and shoot it out of the sky before the lighter, more agile plane (with an inferior radar) got close. Except that didn't happen. Some blame lack of approval-to-fire on target that isn't visually identified, but the reality is that the tech wasn't there.
Now it is. Most fighter-to-fighter kills now are radar beyond-visual-range "BVR" kills. Heavier, less maneuverable fighters with more speed, altitude, and radar range can take out lighter ones. The SU-27 can take out the MIG-29. The F-15 can take out the F-16, etc.
Now drones. Drones are mainly a joke when the big boys come to play. The aforementioned SU-27 and F-15 CAN detect and CAN take out most drones. Things like Bayraktars are great against insurgents. Not so much against an advanced military. Note that most drones in service now are used as spotters and ground attack. They are VERY slow, but are high-altitude.
And, no one ruled out EW when it comes to large-scale conflict. Ukraine, 2008 Georgia, Arm/Azer don't count.
edit: For the guy below talking about ICBMs - no one is talking ICBMs. Google AIM-120 AMRAAM and AESA radar. Not trolling, just faster to tell you what to Google than try to summarize.
- baybal2 5y agoExcept a country with shitload of drones will send 100 of them for a cost of 1 F35 from field runways no satellite can find, and bomb your airstrips. Even if you react in time, and shoot down a dozen, result doesn't change.
- nradov 5y agoCurrent F-35A unit cost is $78M. Which model of drone costs $780K and has the same range? In reality cruise missiles will be used for most strikes against fixed targets like runways. Even those cost like $2M each.
- baybal2 5y ago> Which model of drone costs $780K and has the same range? None, but you don't need range if you will creep within few hundred kms of the target, and launch from field.
- nradov 5y agoWell we already have that. Manned aircraft have been used to deliver cruise missiles for decades. Cruise missiles are drones by another name.
- baybal2 5y agoIt's not quite the same. Calling a cruise missile an unmanned bomber does not match the effect. A cruise missile gives you one big bang, enough to ruin a runway. Drones on the other end can keep buzzing in the sky for hours, and destroying whomever still tries to take off, or repair the runway.
- onepointsixC 5y agoThe F-4 story is a bit more nuanced than that. The issue wasn't that the F-4 didn't have a cannon, but that it was assumed that homing missiles would make teaching the art of dogfighting obsolete. This was proven to be a disastrous mistake. However once SFTI program (AKA TOPGUN) was established, the now much better trained American pilots had established a clear lead in air to air victories. We know that it wasn't the lack of a gun because a gun pod was developed for the F-4. The ratios of victories to losses of the gun pod equipped F-4's was worse than those without.
- throw1234651234 5y agoFor anyone reading this later who doesn't want to dig into it, I just want to confirm that everything onepointsix said is correct. Thanks for the details!
- leetcrew 5y agoI mostly agree, but aim-120s are hundreds of thousands of dollars each, and each plane only carries about ten. toe-to-toe, a drone has no chance against a modern fighter, but fighters are an extremely inefficient counter to a fleet of cheap drones. of course, how to get the swarm of cheap drones to a distant target is also an unsolved problem.