9 ms·

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candida

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

geocar 5y ago
It irks me too; It irks me because this is dangerous: Whether this succeeds or fails tells you (or me) nothing about the values (or costs) of UBI, but it is awful convincing to people who don't understand the difference between UBI and welfare, and it is hard not to imagine someone against UBI (like a capitalist) actually endorsing these kinds of welfare-mislabelled-as-UBI; to specifically shit in the pool when everyone's looking and say see? UBI doesn't work. At best, this is a way to waste some political capital of UBI supporters, and at worst, will be used to push UBI back another decade in Ireland. For this reason I think any communists and socialists who support UBI should refuse to acknowledge this as UBI, and use the vulgarism "welfare" instead exactly as you suggest.
- Kbelicius 5y ago
  It irks me when people confuse news headlines for news. Ireland is not launching a UBI for artists, it is launching BI for artists. The only place you could find "universal" mentioned is this article.
nix23 5y ago
Is "artist" even a occupation? No really, is that a quality thing or so? Is a NFT-Gorilla Creator a artist? The 3 star Cook? The aerobatics Pilot? Musician...the Haskell programmer? Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions?
- rsynnott 5y ago
  Artists' income from art in Ireland is tax exempt up to 50k/year (this used to be a lot looser until someone noticed that _U2_ was benefiting from it), so Ireland has prior experience with determining what is and isn't art for tax purposes, anyway...
- timeon 5y ago
  > Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions? Selling stuff for millions makes you businessman not an artist. He was recognized as an artist before that. But I guess that just confirms your point about occupation.
- telxosser 5y ago
  Exactly. Just go around collecting old toilets and make some Duchamp inspired masterpiece then collect your UBI.
bserge 5y ago
3pt14159 5y ago
The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason is that the winners of the current system (most seniors, top half of wage earners, the international elite) are the ones that either vote, or set political agendas. They like being able to hire [personal helpers, maids, warehouse workers] for $12 an hour. For a true UBI we need to raise taxes and prices a lot and that will have downsides (at least in the short term) for probably 50 to 60% of the population. We will lose workers. Real output will fall. Taxes will have to go up and we will lose some people to other job markets. So instead people nibble around the policy edges.
- Retric 5y ago
  Implementing social security in the first place took massive social upheaval. UBI as a thought experiment is never going to happen, it would take a massive political movement or economic apocalypse.
  - VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
    I think it's pretty likely that some country will actually try it. Most likely one of the oil-rich welfare states in the nordics. I doubt it lasts very long though especially after they start seeing an explosion of immigration. From my experience, the citizens of those north European countries don't like people that don't look like them.
    - pc86 5y ago
      As a general rule, people in aggregate don't like people that don't look like them. It's certainly not specific to northern Europe.
    - merpnderp 5y ago
      If they see an explosion of immigration, it’s because of the illegal immigrant labor market created by the massive spike in wages and massive decline in available labor. The governments can’t keep people out but also can’t make the new people citizens else it would instantly bankrupt UBI. This seems like the Achilles heel of UBI.
jeroenhd 5y ago
I suppose an art subsidy with no selection criteria whatsoever is open to anyone, so it's close to UBI at least.
Kbelicius 5y ago
This is marketing for the artforum. I couldn't find anywhere else that talks about this as UBI, certainly not the government.

geocar 5y ago

It irks me too; It irks me because this is dangerous: Whether this succeeds or fails tells you (or me) nothing about the values (or costs) of UBI, but it is awful convincing to people who don't understand the difference between UBI and welfare, and it is hard not to imagine someone against UBI (like a capitalist) actually endorsing these kinds of welfare-mislabelled-as-UBI; to specifically shit in the pool when everyone's looking and say see? UBI doesn't work. At best, this is a way to waste some political capital of UBI supporters, and at worst, will be used to push UBI back another decade in Ireland. For this reason I think any communists and socialists who support UBI should refuse to acknowledge this as UBI, and use the vulgarism "welfare" instead exactly as you suggest.

Kbelicius 5y ago
It irks me when people confuse news headlines for news. Ireland is not launching a UBI for artists, it is launching BI for artists. The only place you could find "universal" mentioned is this article.

nix23 5y ago

Is "artist" even a occupation? No really, is that a quality thing or so? Is a NFT-Gorilla Creator a artist? The 3 star Cook? The aerobatics Pilot? Musician...the Haskell programmer? Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions?

rsynnott 5y ago
Artists' income from art in Ireland is tax exempt up to 50k/year (this used to be a lot looser until someone noticed that _U2_ was benefiting from it), so Ireland has prior experience with determining what is and isn't art for tax purposes, anyway...
timeon 5y ago
> Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions? Selling stuff for millions makes you businessman not an artist. He was recognized as an artist before that. But I guess that just confirms your point about occupation.
telxosser 5y ago
Exactly. Just go around collecting old toilets and make some Duchamp inspired masterpiece then collect your UBI.

bserge 5y ago

3pt14159 5y ago

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason is that the winners of the current system (most seniors, top half of wage earners, the international elite) are the ones that either vote, or set political agendas. They like being able to hire [personal helpers, maids, warehouse workers] for $12 an hour. For a true UBI we need to raise taxes and prices a lot and that will have downsides (at least in the short term) for probably 50 to 60% of the population. We will lose workers. Real output will fall. Taxes will have to go up and we will lose some people to other job markets. So instead people nibble around the policy edges.

Retric 5y ago
Implementing social security in the first place took massive social upheaval. UBI as a thought experiment is never going to happen, it would take a massive political movement or economic apocalypse.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  I think it's pretty likely that some country will actually try it. Most likely one of the oil-rich welfare states in the nordics. I doubt it lasts very long though especially after they start seeing an explosion of immigration. From my experience, the citizens of those north European countries don't like people that don't look like them.
  - pc86 5y ago
    As a general rule, people in aggregate don't like people that don't look like them. It's certainly not specific to northern Europe.
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    If they see an explosion of immigration, it’s because of the illegal immigrant labor market created by the massive spike in wages and massive decline in available labor. The governments can’t keep people out but also can’t make the new people citizens else it would instantly bankrupt UBI. This seems like the Achilles heel of UBI.

jeroenhd 5y ago

I suppose an art subsidy with no selection criteria whatsoever is open to anyone, so it's close to UBI at least.

Kbelicius 5y ago

This is marketing for the artforum. I couldn't find anywhere else that talks about this as UBI, certainly not the government.