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> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 h

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the top recommendation of €10.50 is a red herring and not what’s being implemented (one must admit that €2/hour doesn’t sound so impressive), perhaps something else?

swarnie 5y ago
- Zenst 5y ago
  For background "Diane Abbott" is a bit of a UK meme for when any political/government does bad maths. This if from a few instances of such maths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYIkhJdOZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYIkhJdOZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxjkvjHn6Qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxjkvjHn6Qg But we all have such moments, she just did it publicly a few times and with that, a meme was born.
  - pydry 5y ago
    There is more than a whiff of racism in the wanton attacks she faced. She received more death and rape threats than any other female MP, for example. Somehow there were more memes for fluffing her figures in one interview than the future leader got for hiding from a journalist in a fridge a week or so later.
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  It's a fairly well documented fact at this point that abuse of Diane Abbott's incorrect use of maths is driven mostly by misogynistic online abuse and hate-filled newspapers looking ot make a quick buck. I'm not suggesting that's you, but please don't perpetuate it. You don't have to look far beyond the people in power right now to see politicians making stuff up or saying things that are completely untrue. Why is Diane in the firing line? She's not even an Irish politician. - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/abuse-of-diane-abbott-driven-by-racism-and-misogyny-says-umunna https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/abuse-of-di... - https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/tories-need-to-stop-banging-on-about-diane-abbotts-brain-freeze-because-their-own-maths-mistakes-are-far-worse/ https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/tories-nee...
  - andrepd 5y ago
    The Prime Minister of my country in the 1990s stumbled over some easy math in an interview. It is still a meme today ("é só fazer as contas"), even as he's currently Secretary-General of the UN. >It's a fairly well documented fact at this point I don't know how an opinion can be a well documented fact.
  - bloqs 5y ago
    A Guardian article quoting her party colleague isn't exactly an unbaised or even evidential source. Dianne Abbott is clearly capable in many areas, but the examples that follow her around persist precisely for that reason. She should have known better.
    - maxehmookau 5y ago
      Except any mention of her in the right-wing press and online is always designed to make her look entirely incapable. The meme is "she's stupid", not "she's great and capable, but got some maths wrong." I digress though. The mention of her here perpetuates a lazy stereotype about a politician in a different country. It adds nothing to the discussion and seeks to make a politician of a different country appear stupid.
pembrook 5y ago
Sounds basically like a grant program, not UBI. However, slapping the phrase UBI on your program while it’s trendy is a genius way to “rebrand” something most governments already do. Politicians are the best marketers.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Politicians are the best marketers. There's statutes and case law that make it unwise for real marketers to make claims the way politicians do.
- goblin89 5y ago
  A few times in the past 3–5 years I came across Europeans who would travel and do stuff like photography or filmmaking while being compensated by the government. I was told that those are programs where basically all you need is to be an unemployed artist. (Some of those people would also do remote software consulting or such, although I think that was bending the rules slightly.) For a country that wants to start a similar program, mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic—make people comfortable with the term that could later be expanded to involve actual UBI with less controversy.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    > For a country that wants to start a similar program, mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic—make people comfortable with the term that could later be expanded to involve actual UBI with less controversy. Or water it dowm so that people can't ask for actual UBI.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    > mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic Note that the Irish government, which already has a bunch of other artists' grants and supports, is _not_ calling it "universal". That's a (mostly foreign) media thing.
    - 5y ago
richrichardsson 5y ago
I've never really looked too closely at the idea of UBI, although I like the concept. I always assumed that any money you earn would then be deducted from future payments. With completely arbitrary numbers, let's say UBI was 1000€/month and I earned 500€ in a particular month, then next month my UBI payment would be reduced by that amount. If I earned 1500€ my next UBI payment would be zero, but the excess 500€ would not be rolled over. I may have completely misunderstood how UBI is supposed to work though.
- gmadsen 5y ago
  I believe most implementations do not do that. That could lead to a disincentive for work, since you would need to make the entire amount of the ubi payment before your labor is benefiting you. It is usually a flat rate for everyone, no matter the income. If you want more money, you sell your labor like normal
  - doovd 5y ago
    Sadly, this is the way it works in the UK. Welfare payments are cut by any increases in your pay. So a person who might be offered overtime for some extra money has no incentive to take it because their total take home stays the same but with the latter they miss out on spending time with their family/resting etc.
- illwrks 5y ago
  "a basic income pilot program that would award SELECTED arts workers €10.50 ($11.90) per hour." Selected is the key word. I imagine it would be only a handful that are paid to be full time artists, while the remainder might get funding for specific projects or periods of time.
- dskloet 5y ago
  That's a terrible way to implement UBI. It causes the dreaded welfare trap where people are incentivized to do nothing. UBI should be unconditional. This makes it much easier to implement, removes the stigma, and most importantly avoids the welfare trap. You want people who rely on welfare to be encouraged to become self sufficient, not trap them in dependence.
unwind 5y ago
2,000 hours at 40 hours/week is 50 weeks. As a European, that sounds really really high. I believe around 1,700 is the real average for all of EU, for instance. That is not enough of course to change the result much (at 1,700 hours they would need €107 or just above four times the earmarked amount), I just wanted to point it out.
- nixass 5y ago
  1768 hours to be more exact, at least HR in my company (FAANG) in Germany calculates it that way (85%)
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    Yes, the back of the envelope calculation (Italy) is: 52 weeks x 5 days/week= 260 working days 260 - 20 (minimum paid holydays) -20 (other reasons, national holidays, etc) = 220 working days 220 x 8 = 1760 hours/year, this could vary - maybe - up to 1800 hours depending on a number of factors, but not more.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > 1,700 is the real average for all of EU Salary average is also misleading, there is a fair amount of inequality in European salaries and total compensation, a median would be better suited.
- chrismorgan 5y ago
  My figure of 2,000 was estimating the hours you’re paid for, including holidays, not the hours worked, matching Australia’s model for salary, where the figure is normally reckoned annually. It’s still definitely a touch on the high side (standard in Australia is 7.5h/day, which multiplied by 5 days per week and 52 and a bit weeks per year comes to 1,950 hours per year or a little more), but not by much—around 2.5%, rather than 11–12%.
barcoder 5y ago
It is basic income, so presumably the artist will be able to make additional money their art.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  I wonder if they can take a full-time job in a different industry
rsynnott 5y ago
So, some of it may be an assumption that: - Some beneficiaries would otherwise be on jobseekers' allowance (208 eur/week) - Many beneficiaries would not be full-time, and might be mixing this with a part-time job - Many beneficiaries will drop out of the programme and get a normal job

swarnie 5y ago

Zenst 5y ago
For background "Diane Abbott" is a bit of a UK meme for when any political/government does bad maths. This if from a few instances of such maths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYIkhJdOZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYIkhJdOZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxjkvjHn6Qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxjkvjHn6Qg But we all have such moments, she just did it publicly a few times and with that, a meme was born.
- pydry 5y ago
  There is more than a whiff of racism in the wanton attacks she faced. She received more death and rape threats than any other female MP, for example. Somehow there were more memes for fluffing her figures in one interview than the future leader got for hiding from a journalist in a fridge a week or so later.
maxehmookau 5y ago
It's a fairly well documented fact at this point that abuse of Diane Abbott's incorrect use of maths is driven mostly by misogynistic online abuse and hate-filled newspapers looking ot make a quick buck. I'm not suggesting that's you, but please don't perpetuate it. You don't have to look far beyond the people in power right now to see politicians making stuff up or saying things that are completely untrue. Why is Diane in the firing line? She's not even an Irish politician. - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/abuse-of-diane-abbott-driven-by-racism-and-misogyny-says-umunna https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/abuse-of-di... - https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/tories-need-to-stop-banging-on-about-diane-abbotts-brain-freeze-because-their-own-maths-mistakes-are-far-worse/ https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/tories-nee...
- andrepd 5y ago
  The Prime Minister of my country in the 1990s stumbled over some easy math in an interview. It is still a meme today ("é só fazer as contas"), even as he's currently Secretary-General of the UN. >It's a fairly well documented fact at this point I don't know how an opinion can be a well documented fact.
- bloqs 5y ago
  A Guardian article quoting her party colleague isn't exactly an unbaised or even evidential source. Dianne Abbott is clearly capable in many areas, but the examples that follow her around persist precisely for that reason. She should have known better.
  - maxehmookau 5y ago
    Except any mention of her in the right-wing press and online is always designed to make her look entirely incapable. The meme is "she's stupid", not "she's great and capable, but got some maths wrong." I digress though. The mention of her here perpetuates a lazy stereotype about a politician in a different country. It adds nothing to the discussion and seeks to make a politician of a different country appear stupid.

pembrook 5y ago

Sounds basically like a grant program, not UBI. However, slapping the phrase UBI on your program while it’s trendy is a genius way to “rebrand” something most governments already do. Politicians are the best marketers.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Politicians are the best marketers. There's statutes and case law that make it unwise for real marketers to make claims the way politicians do.
goblin89 5y ago
A few times in the past 3–5 years I came across Europeans who would travel and do stuff like photography or filmmaking while being compensated by the government. I was told that those are programs where basically all you need is to be an unemployed artist. (Some of those people would also do remote software consulting or such, although I think that was bending the rules slightly.) For a country that wants to start a similar program, mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic—make people comfortable with the term that could later be expanded to involve actual UBI with less controversy.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > For a country that wants to start a similar program, mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic—make people comfortable with the term that could later be expanded to involve actual UBI with less controversy. Or water it dowm so that people can't ask for actual UBI.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic Note that the Irish government, which already has a bunch of other artists' grants and supports, is _not_ calling it "universal". That's a (mostly foreign) media thing.
  - 5y ago

richrichardsson 5y ago

I've never really looked too closely at the idea of UBI, although I like the concept. I always assumed that any money you earn would then be deducted from future payments. With completely arbitrary numbers, let's say UBI was 1000€/month and I earned 500€ in a particular month, then next month my UBI payment would be reduced by that amount. If I earned 1500€ my next UBI payment would be zero, but the excess 500€ would not be rolled over. I may have completely misunderstood how UBI is supposed to work though.

gmadsen 5y ago
I believe most implementations do not do that. That could lead to a disincentive for work, since you would need to make the entire amount of the ubi payment before your labor is benefiting you. It is usually a flat rate for everyone, no matter the income. If you want more money, you sell your labor like normal
- doovd 5y ago
  Sadly, this is the way it works in the UK. Welfare payments are cut by any increases in your pay. So a person who might be offered overtime for some extra money has no incentive to take it because their total take home stays the same but with the latter they miss out on spending time with their family/resting etc.
illwrks 5y ago
"a basic income pilot program that would award SELECTED arts workers €10.50 ($11.90) per hour." Selected is the key word. I imagine it would be only a handful that are paid to be full time artists, while the remainder might get funding for specific projects or periods of time.
dskloet 5y ago
That's a terrible way to implement UBI. It causes the dreaded welfare trap where people are incentivized to do nothing. UBI should be unconditional. This makes it much easier to implement, removes the stigma, and most importantly avoids the welfare trap. You want people who rely on welfare to be encouraged to become self sufficient, not trap them in dependence.

unwind 5y ago

2,000 hours at 40 hours/week is 50 weeks. As a European, that sounds really really high. I believe around 1,700 is the real average for all of EU, for instance. That is not enough of course to change the result much (at 1,700 hours they would need €107 or just above four times the earmarked amount), I just wanted to point it out.

nixass 5y ago
1768 hours to be more exact, at least HR in my company (FAANG) in Germany calculates it that way (85%)
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Yes, the back of the envelope calculation (Italy) is: 52 weeks x 5 days/week= 260 working days 260 - 20 (minimum paid holydays) -20 (other reasons, national holidays, etc) = 220 working days 220 x 8 = 1760 hours/year, this could vary - maybe - up to 1800 hours depending on a number of factors, but not more.
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> 1,700 is the real average for all of EU Salary average is also misleading, there is a fair amount of inequality in European salaries and total compensation, a median would be better suited.
chrismorgan 5y ago
My figure of 2,000 was estimating the hours you’re paid for, including holidays, not the hours worked, matching Australia’s model for salary, where the figure is normally reckoned annually. It’s still definitely a touch on the high side (standard in Australia is 7.5h/day, which multiplied by 5 days per week and 52 and a bit weeks per year comes to 1,950 hours per year or a little more), but not by much—around 2.5%, rather than 11–12%.

barcoder 5y ago

It is basic income, so presumably the artist will be able to make additional money their art.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
I wonder if they can take a full-time job in a different industry

rsynnott 5y ago

So, some of it may be an assumption that: - Some beneficiaries would otherwise be on jobseekers' allowance (208 eur/week) - Many beneficiaries would not be full-time, and might be mixing this with a part-time job - Many beneficiaries will drop out of the programme and get a normal job