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Well, rich get their money as capital gains most of the time. You can't tax that (and stupid, unworkable attempt to do it resulted in BBB Act falling through -

Well, rich get their money as capital gains most of the time. You can't tax that (and stupid, unworkable attempt to do it resulted in BBB Act falling through - very logically so). Attempt to tax capital gains will result in money going offshore. Attempt to install "global" wealth tax will result in simply US being sidelined in the world, progressively isolated because now the world's rich will play the same hand as the CCP, dropping U.S. passports in the process. Why not invest more in policing instead of instituting UBI? It will be a lot, lot cheaper to do, and achieve the same goal - making the country safer.

eesmith 5y ago
Yes, part of my point is that the US should stop acting as a tax haven. If 330 million non-ultra-wealthy can't be effective against the billionaire class then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. In the end, only the rich can afford to live somewhere that isn't a cesspool, surrounded by private security to keep out riffraff like me. I don't want to live in that world. What does policing have to do with anything? I pointed you to a list of issues which strengthen the poverty trap. Will the police run grocery stores in food deserts? Will the police provide free meals to all elementary school students? Will the police provide free health care or child care services? I didn't think so.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. Metaphorically, of course... Right?
  - eesmith 5y ago
    Since you doubt my sincerity already, I don't think there's anything I can say which would change your opinion.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      Sorry. It's not about your intentions. I'm just finding it hard to resist and keep it only metaphorical. Luckily, for society, I was always bad at arts & crafts.
- anovikov 5y ago
  >It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. I am that type of person, i am not saying that just because it's too late: they already moved there. China until very recently gave completely zero regard to the environment (and mostly still doesn't) and they use it as a leverage for their economic development. >What does policing have to do with anything? Because main reasoning behind UBI is the crime threat created by the poor, and the chances that UBI will reduce crime? >How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? Why so? He will just drop the passport (with 0.001% of cash he has you can legally buy a passport in many first-world countries), and next year will become a non-US person for tax purposes? And if you think of scrapping tax benefits for investments from the non-US persons, then well... It will mean the end of the good old U.S. because not just all rich will leave investing their money elsewhere, but no foreign capital will come in, and USD will stop being a reserve country. U.S. will be no better, or richer, than say Brazil, will simply become an irrelevant backwater. Sounds like you guys want to eat the cake and have it, too: U.S. is a country to achieve things, it is a country for the 1%, or even less. Best people from around the world go there to make it, and they do - this isn't possible anywhere else. But to have winners, you need to have losers too. Do you want to be like the EU where people immigrate mostly for the "free stuff", and sometimes never work at all again after moving in?
  - eesmith 5y ago
    China's new regard for environmental safety can also be interpreted as a failure in the older model of disregarding the environment. Rather like how the US laws were passed due due to failures in its older model. > main reasoning behind UBI is the crime threat created by the poor That's news to me. Source please? Checking Wikipedia - nope, don't see that listed as a factor. Checking Google Scholar found https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w25538/w25538.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w25538/w255...: - One commonly cited reason to adopt a UBI is the combination of labor-displacing technological change –journalist Annie Lowrey calls this“the robot apocalypse” (Lowrey 2018)–and rising inequality and wage stagnation. - Alternatively, a UBI might be seen as a response to perceived inadequacies --ineffectiveness, inefficiencies,unfairness, contingency, or insufficiency --of the current social safety net. https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-polisci-050317-070954 https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-polis... lists: - Those proposals share with recent versions of UBI a commitment to the view that a share of the wealth produced by all in common, or by previous generations, should be redistributed to all in the form of a direct payment to individuals. - In a context of systemic discrimination against African-Americans and the resulting widespread unemployment and poverty, Martin Luther King, Jr. [2010 (1967)], the Black Panther Party, and James Boggs (1968) also considered guaranteed income as a strategy. - Meanwhile, feminists, including the Wages for Housework movement in the 1970s, also discussed an income separate from labor as a way to weaken the prominence of the male breadwinner model - Milton Friedman [thought] it would reduce the paternalistic and intrusive state bureaucracy required to decide who, among the poor, merits assistance While there does seem to be evidence that UBI reduces crime, that appears to be a supporting argument, not the main one. I strongly doubt the Black Panther Party would have supported increased police funding instead of UBI. Friedman's argument was "market forces ... accomplish wonderful things" but "cannot ensure a distribution of income that enables all citizens to meet basic economic needs". I therefore believe your position does not have a solid foundation. > and next year will become a non-US person for tax purposes? The US has an expatriation tax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax#United_States . And the US isn't currently accepting expatriation requests, which require an in-person interview, because of covid. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29745981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29745981 And US politicians have threatened to pass laws to make it harder to use expatriation as a tax-avoidance mechanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-PATRIOT_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-PATRIOT_Act . So I don't think you understand the actual details. Further, his leaving for this purpose would greatly decrease the influence of the Gates Foundation, and limit his ability to visit the US, where he has the most influence. > but no foreign capital will come in Yes, I got that - you want the entire world to be a tax haven, catering to the richest of the rich, with warnings of the dire consequences should there be the slightest restriction in the free flow of capital. > it is a country for the 1%, or even less. 8 billion people on the planet * 1% = 80 million. Population of the US = 330 million. By your numbers, the US is NOT a place for at least 250 million of the current population. You've implicitly agreed that that's a bad thing, but you seem to think increased police funding is the better way to improve it? Note that the US already pays a lot in police funding, which doesn't seem to have helped. > the end of the good old U.S. I don't know what that means. Why would the US will break up because of this? > simply become an irrelevant backwater When did Brazil become an irrelevant backwater? Does Embraer no longer produce planes? Brazil is ranked #12 in GDP by country. > Do you want to be like the EU where people immigrate mostly for the "free stuff", and sometimes never work at all again after moving in? Odd then that all the people I know who immigrated to the EU work. Given your earlier statements, I'm going to need some stronger evidence for that claim. Nevertheless, since I support UBI, knowing that some people will sit around smoking pot all day while watching the surf, absolutely yes. Yet you sound like you're surprised? I also expect that a lot of FOSS developers will jump at the chance to work on software projects used around the world, without having to worry about where the money comes from. I think the benefits of the latter will far outweigh the former. Famously, UB40 get their name from the unemployment form all of the band founders needed to sign, as they were unemployed when the founded the band. Famously, J. K. Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book while living on benefits.

eesmith 5y ago

Yes, part of my point is that the US should stop acting as a tax haven. If 330 million non-ultra-wealthy can't be effective against the billionaire class then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. In the end, only the rich can afford to live somewhere that isn't a cesspool, surrounded by private security to keep out riffraff like me. I don't want to live in that world. What does policing have to do with anything? I pointed you to a list of issues which strengthen the poverty trap. Will the police run grocery stores in food deserts? Will the police provide free meals to all elementary school students? Will the police provide free health care or child care services? I didn't think so.

rbanffy 5y ago
> then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. Metaphorically, of course... Right?
- eesmith 5y ago
  Since you doubt my sincerity already, I don't think there's anything I can say which would change your opinion.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    Sorry. It's not about your intentions. I'm just finding it hard to resist and keep it only metaphorical. Luckily, for society, I was always bad at arts & crafts.
anovikov 5y ago
>It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. I am that type of person, i am not saying that just because it's too late: they already moved there. China until very recently gave completely zero regard to the environment (and mostly still doesn't) and they use it as a leverage for their economic development. >What does policing have to do with anything? Because main reasoning behind UBI is the crime threat created by the poor, and the chances that UBI will reduce crime? >How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? Why so? He will just drop the passport (with 0.001% of cash he has you can legally buy a passport in many first-world countries), and next year will become a non-US person for tax purposes? And if you think of scrapping tax benefits for investments from the non-US persons, then well... It will mean the end of the good old U.S. because not just all rich will leave investing their money elsewhere, but no foreign capital will come in, and USD will stop being a reserve country. U.S. will be no better, or richer, than say Brazil, will simply become an irrelevant backwater. Sounds like you guys want to eat the cake and have it, too: U.S. is a country to achieve things, it is a country for the 1%, or even less. Best people from around the world go there to make it, and they do - this isn't possible anywhere else. But to have winners, you need to have losers too. Do you want to be like the EU where people immigrate mostly for the "free stuff", and sometimes never work at all again after moving in?
- eesmith 5y ago
  China's new regard for environmental safety can also be interpreted as a failure in the older model of disregarding the environment. Rather like how the US laws were passed due due to failures in its older model. > main reasoning behind UBI is the crime threat created by the poor That's news to me. Source please? Checking Wikipedia - nope, don't see that listed as a factor. Checking Google Scholar found https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w25538/w25538.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w25538/w255...: - One commonly cited reason to adopt a UBI is the combination of labor-displacing technological change –journalist Annie Lowrey calls this“the robot apocalypse” (Lowrey 2018)–and rising inequality and wage stagnation. - Alternatively, a UBI might be seen as a response to perceived inadequacies --ineffectiveness, inefficiencies,unfairness, contingency, or insufficiency --of the current social safety net. https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-polisci-050317-070954 https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-polis... lists: - Those proposals share with recent versions of UBI a commitment to the view that a share of the wealth produced by all in common, or by previous generations, should be redistributed to all in the form of a direct payment to individuals. - In a context of systemic discrimination against African-Americans and the resulting widespread unemployment and poverty, Martin Luther King, Jr. [2010 (1967)], the Black Panther Party, and James Boggs (1968) also considered guaranteed income as a strategy. - Meanwhile, feminists, including the Wages for Housework movement in the 1970s, also discussed an income separate from labor as a way to weaken the prominence of the male breadwinner model - Milton Friedman [thought] it would reduce the paternalistic and intrusive state bureaucracy required to decide who, among the poor, merits assistance While there does seem to be evidence that UBI reduces crime, that appears to be a supporting argument, not the main one. I strongly doubt the Black Panther Party would have supported increased police funding instead of UBI. Friedman's argument was "market forces ... accomplish wonderful things" but "cannot ensure a distribution of income that enables all citizens to meet basic economic needs". I therefore believe your position does not have a solid foundation. > and next year will become a non-US person for tax purposes? The US has an expatriation tax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax#United_States . And the US isn't currently accepting expatriation requests, which require an in-person interview, because of covid. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29745981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29745981 And US politicians have threatened to pass laws to make it harder to use expatriation as a tax-avoidance mechanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-PATRIOT_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-PATRIOT_Act . So I don't think you understand the actual details. Further, his leaving for this purpose would greatly decrease the influence of the Gates Foundation, and limit his ability to visit the US, where he has the most influence. > but no foreign capital will come in Yes, I got that - you want the entire world to be a tax haven, catering to the richest of the rich, with warnings of the dire consequences should there be the slightest restriction in the free flow of capital. > it is a country for the 1%, or even less. 8 billion people on the planet * 1% = 80 million. Population of the US = 330 million. By your numbers, the US is NOT a place for at least 250 million of the current population. You've implicitly agreed that that's a bad thing, but you seem to think increased police funding is the better way to improve it? Note that the US already pays a lot in police funding, which doesn't seem to have helped. > the end of the good old U.S. I don't know what that means. Why would the US will break up because of this? > simply become an irrelevant backwater When did Brazil become an irrelevant backwater? Does Embraer no longer produce planes? Brazil is ranked #12 in GDP by country. > Do you want to be like the EU where people immigrate mostly for the "free stuff", and sometimes never work at all again after moving in? Odd then that all the people I know who immigrated to the EU work. Given your earlier statements, I'm going to need some stronger evidence for that claim. Nevertheless, since I support UBI, knowing that some people will sit around smoking pot all day while watching the surf, absolutely yes. Yet you sound like you're surprised? I also expect that a lot of FOSS developers will jump at the chance to work on software projects used around the world, without having to worry about where the money comes from. I think the benefits of the latter will far outweigh the former. Famously, UB40 get their name from the unemployment form all of the band founders needed to sign, as they were unemployed when the founded the band. Famously, J. K. Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book while living on benefits.