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Study: Basic income would not reduce people's willingness to work

anovikov 5y ago
Basic income is the most disgustingly cynical idea of a social policy i can think of. Liberal crowd that advocates for it, they just don't think about it, they are captively taken along for a ride just like the MAGA crowd is, just on the other side. Basic income is a tool to make rich richer (because it means giving more money to spend to the most gullible, financially irresponsible population - poor - from which the money is easy to make provided they have it in the first place). Also, it helps the rich to pull the ladder from under them to make sure none of the middle class gets rich to compete with them - as they won't be able to save up and invest having to pay taxes to fund the UBI.
- eesmith 5y ago
  > as they won't be able to save up and invest having to pay taxes to fund the UBI. 90% income tax for the top-level tax bracket. Just like the US had in the 1950s. And a global wealth tax. > financially irresponsible population - poor Poor people are generally more financially responsible than rich people. When you're rich, you can sink your money into failures like Theranos and shrug it off. When you're poor, you have to count every penny because even one unexpected cost can sink you even deeper into the poverty trap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty . As for UBI, it's the best solution I know of for the "how to fund FOSS development".
  - anovikov 5y ago
    Well, rich get their money as capital gains most of the time. You can't tax that (and stupid, unworkable attempt to do it resulted in BBB Act falling through - very logically so). Attempt to tax capital gains will result in money going offshore. Attempt to install "global" wealth tax will result in simply US being sidelined in the world, progressively isolated because now the world's rich will play the same hand as the CCP, dropping U.S. passports in the process. Why not invest more in policing instead of instituting UBI? It will be a lot, lot cheaper to do, and achieve the same goal - making the country safer.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Yes, part of my point is that the US should stop acting as a tax haven. If 330 million non-ultra-wealthy can't be effective against the billionaire class then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. In the end, only the rich can afford to live somewhere that isn't a cesspool, surrounded by private security to keep out riffraff like me. I don't want to live in that world. What does policing have to do with anything? I pointed you to a list of issues which strengthen the poverty trap. Will the police run grocery stores in food deserts? Will the police provide free meals to all elementary school students? Will the police provide free health care or child care services? I didn't think so.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        > then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. Metaphorically, of course... Right?
        eesmith 5y ago
        Since you doubt my sincerity already, I don't think there's anything I can say which would change your opinion.
        rbanffy 5y ago
        Sorry. It's not about your intentions. I'm just finding it hard to resist and keep it only metaphorical. Luckily, for society, I was always bad at arts & crafts.
      - anovikov 5y ago
        >It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. I am that type of person, i am not saying that just because it's too late: they already moved there. China until very recently gave completely zero regard to the environment (and mostly still doesn't) and they use it as a leverage for their economic development. >What does policing have to do with anything? Because main reasoning behind UBI is the crime threat created by the poor, and the chances that UBI will reduce crime? >How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? Why so? He will just drop the passport (with 0.001% of cash he has you can legally buy a passport in many first-world countries), and next year will become a non-US person for tax purposes? And if you think of scrapping tax benefits for investments from the non-US persons, then well... It will mean the end of the good old U.S. because not just all rich will leave investing their money elsewhere, but no foreign capital will come in, and USD will stop being a reserve country. U.S. will be no better, or richer, than say Brazil, will simply become an irrelevant backwater. Sounds like you guys want to eat the cake and have it, too: U.S. is a country to achieve things, it is a country for the 1%, or even less. Best people from around the world go there to make it, and they do - this isn't possible anywhere else. But to have winners, you need to have losers too. Do you want to be like the EU where people immigrate mostly for the "free stuff", and sometimes never work at all again after moving in?

Basic income is the most disgustingly cynical idea of a social policy i can think of. Liberal crowd that advocates for it, they just don't think about it, they are captively taken along for a ride just like the MAGA crowd is, just on the other side. Basic income is a tool to make rich richer (because it means giving more money to spend to the most gullible, financially irresponsible population - poor - from which the money is easy to make provided they have it in the first place). Also, it helps the rich to pull the ladder from under them to make sure none of the middle class gets rich to compete with them - as they won't be able to save up and invest having to pay taxes to fund the UBI.

eesmith 5y ago
> as they won't be able to save up and invest having to pay taxes to fund the UBI. 90% income tax for the top-level tax bracket. Just like the US had in the 1950s. And a global wealth tax. > financially irresponsible population - poor Poor people are generally more financially responsible than rich people. When you're rich, you can sink your money into failures like Theranos and shrug it off. When you're poor, you have to count every penny because even one unexpected cost can sink you even deeper into the poverty trap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty . As for UBI, it's the best solution I know of for the "how to fund FOSS development".
- anovikov 5y ago
  Well, rich get their money as capital gains most of the time. You can't tax that (and stupid, unworkable attempt to do it resulted in BBB Act falling through - very logically so). Attempt to tax capital gains will result in money going offshore. Attempt to install "global" wealth tax will result in simply US being sidelined in the world, progressively isolated because now the world's rich will play the same hand as the CCP, dropping U.S. passports in the process. Why not invest more in policing instead of instituting UBI? It will be a lot, lot cheaper to do, and achieve the same goal - making the country safer.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    Yes, part of my point is that the US should stop acting as a tax haven. If 330 million non-ultra-wealthy can't be effective against the billionaire class then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. In the end, only the rich can afford to live somewhere that isn't a cesspool, surrounded by private security to keep out riffraff like me. I don't want to live in that world. What does policing have to do with anything? I pointed you to a list of issues which strengthen the poverty trap. Will the police run grocery stores in food deserts? Will the police provide free meals to all elementary school students? Will the police provide free health care or child care services? I didn't think so.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > then it's metaphorically time to break out the guillotines. Metaphorically, of course... Right?
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Since you doubt my sincerity already, I don't think there's anything I can say which would change your opinion.
        rbanffy 5y ago
        Sorry. It's not about your intentions. I'm just finding it hard to resist and keep it only metaphorical. Luckily, for society, I was always bad at arts & crafts.
    - anovikov 5y ago
      >It sounds you're the type of person who says we can't have effective pollution control laws because otherwise jobs will move to places where they have worse laws. I am that type of person, i am not saying that just because it's too late: they already moved there. China until very recently gave completely zero regard to the environment (and mostly still doesn't) and they use it as a leverage for their economic development. >What does policing have to do with anything? Because main reasoning behind UBI is the crime threat created by the poor, and the chances that UBI will reduce crime? >How much more do you think we can tax Gates before he decides to leave the US, never to return, and never to visit a country with an appropriate extradition treaty for the US? Why so? He will just drop the passport (with 0.001% of cash he has you can legally buy a passport in many first-world countries), and next year will become a non-US person for tax purposes? And if you think of scrapping tax benefits for investments from the non-US persons, then well... It will mean the end of the good old U.S. because not just all rich will leave investing their money elsewhere, but no foreign capital will come in, and USD will stop being a reserve country. U.S. will be no better, or richer, than say Brazil, will simply become an irrelevant backwater. Sounds like you guys want to eat the cake and have it, too: U.S. is a country to achieve things, it is a country for the 1%, or even less. Best people from around the world go there to make it, and they do - this isn't possible anywhere else. But to have winners, you need to have losers too. Do you want to be like the EU where people immigrate mostly for the "free stuff", and sometimes never work at all again after moving in?