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That's how science works: when the facts become updated you update your decisions. Israel has been among the most science-driven governments in Covid policy. I'

That's how science works: when the facts become updated you update your decisions. Israel has been among the most science-driven governments in Covid policy. I'm not really sure why your "impression" should be mentioned given that you expressly state that you're not a specialist.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago
I have some difficulty with parsing this sentence: who should be asked for permission on what should be mentioned or not?
FridayoLeary 5y ago
I think you are sadly wrong. Corona policy in the early days quickly became inextricably enmeshed in political rivalries, electioneering and knee- jerk reactions. When you say "science driven" i think you really meant "stricter regulations". It is a fatal error to conflate the two.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  Yes, there's a lot of baggage left over with a lot of regulations that were made at the beginning and which don't make much sense now. It annoys me. It's not the end of the world, and much in the same way that we had vaccine passports and quarantines throughout history when diseases came and went, once we get over with this I trust we work to get rid of the baggage.
  - Mountain_Skies 5y ago
    Just like we got rid of the Patriot Act and all of its tag alongs?
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      No, just like how we had quarantines for people coming by ship in the 50s or how you have required vaccinations to enter certain countries on certain disease outbreaks and that has just been reduced drastrically as a lot of endemic diseases have been tamed.
  - aakresearch 5y ago
    As somebody who was bullied in my childhood and early youth, I can say that there is no way one could go back to their bullies and collaborate with them politely. The only way to "get rid of the baggage" is to cut these people out of one's life, completely. No cooperation possible, unless a genuine profuse apology is given, and convincing demonstration of good intention is presented. The other way is to become a bully, which is not an option for many. The measures and the rhetoric of covid-enthusiasts is bullying in appearance and in essence (night curfews - for six months - and mandatory muzzling - for the owner - on solitary dog walks, for example), although I agree that for a brief initial period some didn't look like so. It is now, and has been going for quite a while. The less sense all the measures make, the more harsh doubling down goes ahead. The concerns are not only dismissed, but actively invalidated and vilified. There is absolutely no appetite shown to even acknowledge that somebody may be in pain due to what being done, yet alone apologize for it. I don't know what is appropriate word for someone insisting to continue to inflict pain even after being told that their subject is in great pain. Gaslighting? Sadism? Righteousness? Bullying? Genuinely caring people have no problem with acknowledgement and apology, the ones who do are... you name it. And before accusations of intent to kill grandma, I haven't stepped out of my house for two years now, such repulsive reaction I have to masks and some other "measures". Do not and did not care about covid a tiniest bit. There is no light in sight, so I'm preparing to take my life, if not consumed by ailments, old and new, that flared up. If, by some miracle, "we get over this" and I'm alive, then all the time second-guessing each fellow human on whether they were actual bully or accidental accomplice is not a great perspective either. But bullies do not deserve cooperation or compassion. So the only way forward I see is absolute sabotage of all government initiatives. All within the boundaries of law and regulations, of course.
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      > As somebody who was bullied in my childhood and early youth, I can say that there is no way one could go back to their bullies and collaborate with them politely. The only way to "get rid of the baggage" is to cut these people out of one's life, completely. No cooperation possible, unless a genuine profuse apology is given, and convincing demonstration of good intention is presented. The other way is to become a bully, which is not an option for many. From one person who was bullied and now manages to work quite successfully with government and private institutions, you don't deal with institutions and collectives the same was as you do an individual. It is a useless comparison. > And before accusations of intent to kill grandma, I haven't stepped out of my house for two years now, such repulsive reaction I have to masks and some other "measures". Do not and did not care about covid a tiniest bit. There is no light in sight, so I'm preparing to take my life, if not consumed by ailments, old and new, that flared up. If, by some miracle, "we get over this" and I'm alive, then all the time second-guessing each fellow human on whether they were actual bully or accidental accomplice is not a great perspective either. But bullies do not deserve cooperation or compassion. So the only way forward I see is absolute sabotage of all government initiatives. All within the boundaries of law and regulations, of course. Get some psychological help dude, this has nothing to do with science or medicine.
- nojokes 5y ago
  Are you talking about Israel? My friend from there told me that regardless of huge political differences, there has not been stupid rivalry because of covid.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Does that mean people who say "the science is settled" are anti-science? What about people who insist they can't be wrong, and science can't be wrong, so you better do what they tell you, in the name of science, or else? Because we have a whole lot of that going on and it is celebrated like a holy edict. Science seems to be in constant flux between infallible religion and "we weren't wrong, the facts just have been updated". How you do you know today's fact of day won't be tomorrow's fact in need of being updated? When it comes to using government force and using infallible science to require people to give up their choice in the matter, maybe a bit more introspection and humility is in order and a lot less endless gaslighting and dictatorial commanding. Remember, this won't be the last global pandemic, but it is the last one where science has any credibility. The next pandemic hopefully is as mild as this one because you'll never see this level of cooperation with the government and medical establishment ever again. Everyone now knows "two weeks to flatten the curve" means endless abridgement of civil rights. When that happens, remember that it was the actions during this pandemic that lead to the end of societal trust and cooperation.
- chrononaut 5y ago
  > Remember, this won't be the last global pandemic, but it is the last one where science has any credibility. The next pandemic hopefully is as mild as this one because you'll never see this level of cooperation with the government and medical establishment ever again. Everyone now knows "two weeks to flatten the curve" means endless abridgement of civil rights. When that happens, remember that it was the actions during this pandemic that lead to the end of societal trust and cooperation. I have trouble believing that statement, and it seems a bit hyperbolic. If the next pandemic had a 20% to 40% fatality rate you genuinely believe everyone will ignore all science and run around concerned about their civil rights of similar restrictions were put in place at the start of the outbreak? At worst, there will be more dissidence to restrictions put in place for a similar pandemic in the future. The pendulum does always swing in the other direction, but that's a bit extreme.
- javagram 5y ago
  > Everyone now knows "two weeks to flatten the curve" means endless abridgement of civil rights. Strangely despite having access to google I keep seeing this “two weeks” phrasing repeated. Please google news stories from March 2020 and find that the “15 days to flatten the curve” was a Trump Administration policy and scientists immediately pointed out that 15 days would not be enough and could not make the virus disappear[0]. The number was simply a political decision as it was hard for the US President to change from the February 2020 stance of claiming Covid was just a cold and a hoax by their political opponents to hurt the economy… [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-white-house-15-day-plan-too-short-2020-3?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-white-house-15-d...

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

I have some difficulty with parsing this sentence: who should be asked for permission on what should be mentioned or not?

FridayoLeary 5y ago

I think you are sadly wrong. Corona policy in the early days quickly became inextricably enmeshed in political rivalries, electioneering and knee- jerk reactions. When you say "science driven" i think you really meant "stricter regulations". It is a fatal error to conflate the two.

Daishiman 5y ago
Yes, there's a lot of baggage left over with a lot of regulations that were made at the beginning and which don't make much sense now. It annoys me. It's not the end of the world, and much in the same way that we had vaccine passports and quarantines throughout history when diseases came and went, once we get over with this I trust we work to get rid of the baggage.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Just like we got rid of the Patriot Act and all of its tag alongs?
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    No, just like how we had quarantines for people coming by ship in the 50s or how you have required vaccinations to enter certain countries on certain disease outbreaks and that has just been reduced drastrically as a lot of endemic diseases have been tamed.
- aakresearch 5y ago
  As somebody who was bullied in my childhood and early youth, I can say that there is no way one could go back to their bullies and collaborate with them politely. The only way to "get rid of the baggage" is to cut these people out of one's life, completely. No cooperation possible, unless a genuine profuse apology is given, and convincing demonstration of good intention is presented. The other way is to become a bully, which is not an option for many. The measures and the rhetoric of covid-enthusiasts is bullying in appearance and in essence (night curfews - for six months - and mandatory muzzling - for the owner - on solitary dog walks, for example), although I agree that for a brief initial period some didn't look like so. It is now, and has been going for quite a while. The less sense all the measures make, the more harsh doubling down goes ahead. The concerns are not only dismissed, but actively invalidated and vilified. There is absolutely no appetite shown to even acknowledge that somebody may be in pain due to what being done, yet alone apologize for it. I don't know what is appropriate word for someone insisting to continue to inflict pain even after being told that their subject is in great pain. Gaslighting? Sadism? Righteousness? Bullying? Genuinely caring people have no problem with acknowledgement and apology, the ones who do are... you name it. And before accusations of intent to kill grandma, I haven't stepped out of my house for two years now, such repulsive reaction I have to masks and some other "measures". Do not and did not care about covid a tiniest bit. There is no light in sight, so I'm preparing to take my life, if not consumed by ailments, old and new, that flared up. If, by some miracle, "we get over this" and I'm alive, then all the time second-guessing each fellow human on whether they were actual bully or accidental accomplice is not a great perspective either. But bullies do not deserve cooperation or compassion. So the only way forward I see is absolute sabotage of all government initiatives. All within the boundaries of law and regulations, of course.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    > As somebody who was bullied in my childhood and early youth, I can say that there is no way one could go back to their bullies and collaborate with them politely. The only way to "get rid of the baggage" is to cut these people out of one's life, completely. No cooperation possible, unless a genuine profuse apology is given, and convincing demonstration of good intention is presented. The other way is to become a bully, which is not an option for many. From one person who was bullied and now manages to work quite successfully with government and private institutions, you don't deal with institutions and collectives the same was as you do an individual. It is a useless comparison. > And before accusations of intent to kill grandma, I haven't stepped out of my house for two years now, such repulsive reaction I have to masks and some other "measures". Do not and did not care about covid a tiniest bit. There is no light in sight, so I'm preparing to take my life, if not consumed by ailments, old and new, that flared up. If, by some miracle, "we get over this" and I'm alive, then all the time second-guessing each fellow human on whether they were actual bully or accidental accomplice is not a great perspective either. But bullies do not deserve cooperation or compassion. So the only way forward I see is absolute sabotage of all government initiatives. All within the boundaries of law and regulations, of course. Get some psychological help dude, this has nothing to do with science or medicine.
nojokes 5y ago
Are you talking about Israel? My friend from there told me that regardless of huge political differences, there has not been stupid rivalry because of covid.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Does that mean people who say "the science is settled" are anti-science? What about people who insist they can't be wrong, and science can't be wrong, so you better do what they tell you, in the name of science, or else? Because we have a whole lot of that going on and it is celebrated like a holy edict. Science seems to be in constant flux between infallible religion and "we weren't wrong, the facts just have been updated". How you do you know today's fact of day won't be tomorrow's fact in need of being updated? When it comes to using government force and using infallible science to require people to give up their choice in the matter, maybe a bit more introspection and humility is in order and a lot less endless gaslighting and dictatorial commanding. Remember, this won't be the last global pandemic, but it is the last one where science has any credibility. The next pandemic hopefully is as mild as this one because you'll never see this level of cooperation with the government and medical establishment ever again. Everyone now knows "two weeks to flatten the curve" means endless abridgement of civil rights. When that happens, remember that it was the actions during this pandemic that lead to the end of societal trust and cooperation.

chrononaut 5y ago
> Remember, this won't be the last global pandemic, but it is the last one where science has any credibility. The next pandemic hopefully is as mild as this one because you'll never see this level of cooperation with the government and medical establishment ever again. Everyone now knows "two weeks to flatten the curve" means endless abridgement of civil rights. When that happens, remember that it was the actions during this pandemic that lead to the end of societal trust and cooperation. I have trouble believing that statement, and it seems a bit hyperbolic. If the next pandemic had a 20% to 40% fatality rate you genuinely believe everyone will ignore all science and run around concerned about their civil rights of similar restrictions were put in place at the start of the outbreak? At worst, there will be more dissidence to restrictions put in place for a similar pandemic in the future. The pendulum does always swing in the other direction, but that's a bit extreme.
javagram 5y ago
> Everyone now knows "two weeks to flatten the curve" means endless abridgement of civil rights. Strangely despite having access to google I keep seeing this “two weeks” phrasing repeated. Please google news stories from March 2020 and find that the “15 days to flatten the curve” was a Trump Administration policy and scientists immediately pointed out that 15 days would not be enough and could not make the virus disappear[0]. The number was simply a political decision as it was hard for the US President to change from the February 2020 stance of claiming Covid was just a cold and a hoax by their political opponents to hurt the economy… [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-white-house-15-day-plan-too-short-2020-3?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-white-house-15-d...