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Record cases across the planet regardless of vaccination rates...how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not n

Record cases across the planet regardless of vaccination rates...how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed? How long before official sources acknowledge that breakthrough cases are probably drastically underreported? I can't be the only one surrounded by fully vaccinated individuals testing positive. Its happening far too often for me to dismiss as anecdote. And if officials are this wrong regarding effectiveness, why should we trust them regarding safety? How can anyone have any trust in these institutions after the last two years?

robbrown451 5y ago
"Testing positive" isn't the main question. Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron. But they are quite effective against death and serious disease. Fauci's own words are that "just about everybody" will get infected. If you want anecdotes, at least talk to an ICU nurse. Ask what they are seeing regarding vaccinated or unvaccinated.
- peteradio 5y ago
  Two doses of Pfizer is effective against Omicron for severe disease or death, especially for young folks. That doesn't stop some colleges from mandating boosters.
- twofornone 5y ago
  >Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? If this is the extent of protection from vaccines, why are they still being mandated to cohorts with >.01% mortality (under ≈50)? >And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron The official whitehouse website still claims that breakthrough cases occur at a rate of 1 in 5000. This is revisionist history. 0. https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/
Daishiman 5y ago
Then you have not been reading a single thing coming from the official sources because nobody has stated that vaccines do much against mild disease in Omicron, but they do prevent the hospital system from being saturated with cases and drastically reduce death rates. If at this point you're not aware of this, which has been repeated over and over again in media, you should reconsider your sources of information.
- twofornone 5y ago
  As of the posting of this comment, from the white house: > While so-called “breakthrough infections” among this group do happen, they remain the exception: In fact, recent data indicates there is only 1 confirmed positive case per 5,000 fully vaccinated Americans per week. The startup I work for must be incredibly unlucky given that 7+/14 vaccinated employees have recently tested positive if the odds really are 1 in 5000. I'm sure my anecdote is not unique. The vaccines were billed as the way out of this pandemic from day one. It was assumed that they were "safe and effective" [against infection and spread] long before there was ample time to gather data, especially given the difficulty of collecting data on breakthrough cases when people have no incentive to report them, and most probably did not even presume that they were sick with covid if they experienced mild symptoms post vaccination, given that the messaging around the vaccines would have biased people to believe that they had come down with some infection other than covid. The same way that people, and doctors, have been biased against reporting side effects. Yeah, sure, its just anecdote, except there's a hell of a lot of anecdote going around and those crazy conspiracy theorists have already been quietly proven right about vaccines interfering with womens' monthly cycles, among other suspicions. It is incredibly difficult to properly evaluate vaccines when your test subjects and their doctors have been indoctrinated by strong messaging regarding the test's presumed safety. I'm not suggesting that it was entirely intentional (though partly on behalf of pharma) but at this point all of the official data is suspect due to an emergent faith-like bias. That's not even getting into the ridiculousness of trusting clinical data from pfizer, moderna et al for the initial data which lead to rushed vaccine approval. This has been a political game from the start. 0. https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/
  - 5y ago
kashunstva 5y ago
The intended effect of the vaccines was to reduce the mortality and the severe morbidity of infection and thereby reduce the human burden of the disease and indirectly protect the capacity of healthcare systems to function. In this respect, the vaccines have been enormously successful. Were that not so, the incidence of the omicron variant would have already caused healthcare systems worldwide to collapse.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  Having omnicron "rip through" would actually be a great thing, I've just read an article from Belgium saying they have no patients with omnicron in ICUs. It does seem some people need supervision but I presume the load is much much reduced. Also omnicron doesn't seem to spare vaccinated neither in symptoms nor in infection rate, but that's just anecdotal, maybe someone has other information?
  - rsfern 5y ago
    Do you have a source on Belgium? I found this article from a week ago that says that a single hospital (as far as I can tell) had no omicron icu patients at time of publication, but it also indicates that they might not be tracking it that systematically? Anyway, I don’t really think there’s all that much mitigation possible, but I’m not convinced “let it rip” is necessarily a good thing depending on vaccination rates (I’m in the US, we’ll see how it goes) https://www.brusselstimes.com/health/200725/omicron-dominating-general-population-delta-seemingly-still-presiding-in-hospitals https://www.brusselstimes.com/health/200725/omicron-dominati...
- the_doctah 5y ago
  Revisionist history at its best. If that was the intended effect, officials sure weren't very clear about it.
  - epgui 5y ago
    Uhmm, I don't know where you were getting your information, but yes, it was pretty clear.
version_five 5y ago
And you can see how you get treated if you question today's narrative. I agree with you, and I think most people are starting to realize that the vaccines didnt live up to their initial promise, but try and question it anywhere and you have people coming out of the woodwork telling you we've always been at war with eastasia and that nobody expected vaccines to do anything other than "limit severe infection"
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  It's not only that they didn't live up to their initial promise; it's that those who were skeptical were executed in the court of public opinion. Suddenly, real science didn't matter, and everyone was told to "trust the experts"--the same experts who have made companies and careers out of grift, lies, and psychopathic behavior.
mandmandam 5y ago
> how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed? They'll never do that. They didn't admit they were wrong about masks (they said the lie was for our own good). [0] They didn't admit they were wrong to say it's not airborne. [1] They didn't admit that a Wuhan lab leak was not only possible, but likely. [2] There are other examples to pick and choose from - Pfizer's sneaky contracts [3], [4], their manufacturing concerns [5], women missing periods for months after taking mRNA vaccines [6]. Governments all around have lied about the duration of emergency powers, lied about lockdown lengths, lied about having parties while the rest of us were in lockdown. We've been lied to about vaccine passports, natural immunity, antigen tests, mortality rates, on and on. And many, many good people have had their careers destroyed for taking principled stands, for telling the truth, for speaking up. Many have been vilified, smeared, threatened with death. Millions of posts were removed from Facebook, Twitter, Reddit [7]. And no, you are not the only one surround by double and triple vaccinated individuals testing positive. Omicron has *32* mutations on its spike protein, so it's not all that surprising. What's surprising is how rabid the "anti-vaxx" hate remains. If anything, it's more intense than ever. For me, the worst part is that this has all played into the hands of far right extremists. They were happy to scoop up the ground that the left were scared to stand on, and keep growing stronger for it. [0] - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fauci-said-masks-not-really-effective-in-keeping-out-virus-email-reveals/ar-AAKCZ0c https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fauci-said-masks-not-reall... [1] - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/scientists-react-to-cdc-coronavirus-airborne_n_5f6a0070c5b655acbc701b2c https://www.huffpost.com/entry/scientists-react-to-cdc-coron... [2] - https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/01/12/why-did-scientists-suppress-the-lab-leak-theory/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/01/12/why-did-scientists-... [3] - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/05/wall-of-secrecy-in-pfizer-contracts-as-company-accused-of-profiteering https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/05/wall-of-secr... [4] - https://www.citizen.org/article/pfizers-power/ https://www.citizen.org/article/pfizers-power/ [5] - https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-s-covid-19-vaccine-subject-to-ema-manufacturing-concerns-ahead-december https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-s-covid-19... [6] - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/health/covid-vaccine-menstrual-cycles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/health/covid-vaccine-mens... [7] - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-...
the_doctah 5y ago
I remember right before the Pfizer vaccine came out they touted it as being "95% effective". Like what does that even mean? Clearly it was nonsense.
- epgui 5y ago
  Your lack of understanding does not make it nonsense.
  - lordloki 5y ago
    Your rewriting of history is though.
    - epgui 5y ago
      My rewriting of History? What rewriting?
      - rhino369 5y ago
        95% effective meant 95% less symptomatic cases. Now everyone is pretending nobody ever promised protection from infection.
lamontcg 5y ago
The vaccines are preventing hospitalizations and deaths which is really most of why Omicron is considered to be "mild". How much longer will it take to admit that its still the unvaccinated driving all the hospitalizations? And I'm not at all surprised that a shot given in the arm doesn't give sterilizing mucosal immunity in the upper respiratory tract. It was never expected to (which is why the nasal vaccines are still garnering considerable interest). Call it a communications flaw if you like, but this was more or less expected. Fauci himself was setting expectations lower for a VE of around 50% back in the summer of 2020 before the Phase III trials published the 90% numbers. Those didn't account for waning immunity or escape variants like Omicron though, although their 90% VE against severe disease and hospitalization is still holding up fine.

robbrown451 5y ago

"Testing positive" isn't the main question. Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron. But they are quite effective against death and serious disease. Fauci's own words are that "just about everybody" will get infected. If you want anecdotes, at least talk to an ICU nurse. Ask what they are seeing regarding vaccinated or unvaccinated.

peteradio 5y ago
Two doses of Pfizer is effective against Omicron for severe disease or death, especially for young folks. That doesn't stop some colleges from mandating boosters.
twofornone 5y ago
>Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? If this is the extent of protection from vaccines, why are they still being mandated to cohorts with >.01% mortality (under ≈50)? >And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron The official whitehouse website still claims that breakthrough cases occur at a rate of 1 in 5000. This is revisionist history. 0. https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/

Daishiman 5y ago

Then you have not been reading a single thing coming from the official sources because nobody has stated that vaccines do much against mild disease in Omicron, but they do prevent the hospital system from being saturated with cases and drastically reduce death rates. If at this point you're not aware of this, which has been repeated over and over again in media, you should reconsider your sources of information.

twofornone 5y ago
As of the posting of this comment, from the white house: > While so-called “breakthrough infections” among this group do happen, they remain the exception: In fact, recent data indicates there is only 1 confirmed positive case per 5,000 fully vaccinated Americans per week. The startup I work for must be incredibly unlucky given that 7+/14 vaccinated employees have recently tested positive if the odds really are 1 in 5000. I'm sure my anecdote is not unique. The vaccines were billed as the way out of this pandemic from day one. It was assumed that they were "safe and effective" [against infection and spread] long before there was ample time to gather data, especially given the difficulty of collecting data on breakthrough cases when people have no incentive to report them, and most probably did not even presume that they were sick with covid if they experienced mild symptoms post vaccination, given that the messaging around the vaccines would have biased people to believe that they had come down with some infection other than covid. The same way that people, and doctors, have been biased against reporting side effects. Yeah, sure, its just anecdote, except there's a hell of a lot of anecdote going around and those crazy conspiracy theorists have already been quietly proven right about vaccines interfering with womens' monthly cycles, among other suspicions. It is incredibly difficult to properly evaluate vaccines when your test subjects and their doctors have been indoctrinated by strong messaging regarding the test's presumed safety. I'm not suggesting that it was entirely intentional (though partly on behalf of pharma) but at this point all of the official data is suspect due to an emergent faith-like bias. That's not even getting into the ridiculousness of trusting clinical data from pfizer, moderna et al for the initial data which lead to rushed vaccine approval. This has been a political game from the start. 0. https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/
- 5y ago

kashunstva 5y ago

The intended effect of the vaccines was to reduce the mortality and the severe morbidity of infection and thereby reduce the human burden of the disease and indirectly protect the capacity of healthcare systems to function. In this respect, the vaccines have been enormously successful. Were that not so, the incidence of the omicron variant would have already caused healthcare systems worldwide to collapse.

lambdaba 5y ago
Having omnicron "rip through" would actually be a great thing, I've just read an article from Belgium saying they have no patients with omnicron in ICUs. It does seem some people need supervision but I presume the load is much much reduced. Also omnicron doesn't seem to spare vaccinated neither in symptoms nor in infection rate, but that's just anecdotal, maybe someone has other information?
- rsfern 5y ago
  Do you have a source on Belgium? I found this article from a week ago that says that a single hospital (as far as I can tell) had no omicron icu patients at time of publication, but it also indicates that they might not be tracking it that systematically? Anyway, I don’t really think there’s all that much mitigation possible, but I’m not convinced “let it rip” is necessarily a good thing depending on vaccination rates (I’m in the US, we’ll see how it goes) https://www.brusselstimes.com/health/200725/omicron-dominating-general-population-delta-seemingly-still-presiding-in-hospitals https://www.brusselstimes.com/health/200725/omicron-dominati...
the_doctah 5y ago
Revisionist history at its best. If that was the intended effect, officials sure weren't very clear about it.
- epgui 5y ago
  Uhmm, I don't know where you were getting your information, but yes, it was pretty clear.

version_five 5y ago

And you can see how you get treated if you question today's narrative. I agree with you, and I think most people are starting to realize that the vaccines didnt live up to their initial promise, but try and question it anywhere and you have people coming out of the woodwork telling you we've always been at war with eastasia and that nobody expected vaccines to do anything other than "limit severe infection"

nathanaldensr 5y ago
It's not only that they didn't live up to their initial promise; it's that those who were skeptical were executed in the court of public opinion. Suddenly, real science didn't matter, and everyone was told to "trust the experts"--the same experts who have made companies and careers out of grift, lies, and psychopathic behavior.

mandmandam 5y ago

> how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed? They'll never do that. They didn't admit they were wrong about masks (they said the lie was for our own good). [0] They didn't admit they were wrong to say it's not airborne. [1] They didn't admit that a Wuhan lab leak was not only possible, but likely. [2] There are other examples to pick and choose from - Pfizer's sneaky contracts [3], [4], their manufacturing concerns [5], women missing periods for months after taking mRNA vaccines [6]. Governments all around have lied about the duration of emergency powers, lied about lockdown lengths, lied about having parties while the rest of us were in lockdown. We've been lied to about vaccine passports, natural immunity, antigen tests, mortality rates, on and on. And many, many good people have had their careers destroyed for taking principled stands, for telling the truth, for speaking up. Many have been vilified, smeared, threatened with death. Millions of posts were removed from Facebook, Twitter, Reddit [7]. And no, you are not the only one surround by double and triple vaccinated individuals testing positive. Omicron has *32* mutations on its spike protein, so it's not all that surprising. What's surprising is how rabid the "anti-vaxx" hate remains. If anything, it's more intense than ever. For me, the worst part is that this has all played into the hands of far right extremists. They were happy to scoop up the ground that the left were scared to stand on, and keep growing stronger for it. [0] - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fauci-said-masks-not-really-effective-in-keeping-out-virus-email-reveals/ar-AAKCZ0c https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fauci-said-masks-not-reall... [1] - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/scientists-react-to-cdc-coronavirus-airborne_n_5f6a0070c5b655acbc701b2c https://www.huffpost.com/entry/scientists-react-to-cdc-coron... [2] - https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/01/12/why-did-scientists-suppress-the-lab-leak-theory/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/01/12/why-did-scientists-... [3] - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/05/wall-of-secrecy-in-pfizer-contracts-as-company-accused-of-profiteering https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/05/wall-of-secr... [4] - https://www.citizen.org/article/pfizers-power/ https://www.citizen.org/article/pfizers-power/ [5] - https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-s-covid-19-vaccine-subject-to-ema-manufacturing-concerns-ahead-december https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-s-covid-19... [6] - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/health/covid-vaccine-menstrual-cycles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/health/covid-vaccine-mens... [7] - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-...

the_doctah 5y ago

I remember right before the Pfizer vaccine came out they touted it as being "95% effective". Like what does that even mean? Clearly it was nonsense.

epgui 5y ago
Your lack of understanding does not make it nonsense.
- lordloki 5y ago
  Your rewriting of history is though.
  - epgui 5y ago
    My rewriting of History? What rewriting?
    - rhino369 5y ago
      95% effective meant 95% less symptomatic cases. Now everyone is pretending nobody ever promised protection from infection.

lamontcg 5y ago

The vaccines are preventing hospitalizations and deaths which is really most of why Omicron is considered to be "mild". How much longer will it take to admit that its still the unvaccinated driving all the hospitalizations? And I'm not at all surprised that a shot given in the arm doesn't give sterilizing mucosal immunity in the upper respiratory tract. It was never expected to (which is why the nasal vaccines are still garnering considerable interest). Call it a communications flaw if you like, but this was more or less expected. Fauci himself was setting expectations lower for a VE of around 50% back in the summer of 2020 before the Phase III trials published the 90% numbers. Those didn't account for waning immunity or escape variants like Omicron though, although their 90% VE against severe disease and hospitalization is still holding up fine.