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I'm sure some will. Some won't. So what? I'm not trying to be dismissive, but this strikes me as a "but some people will be upset!" argument, which seems irrel

by pc86 5y ago

I'm sure some will. Some won't. So what? I'm not trying to be dismissive, but this strikes me as a "but some people will be upset!" argument, which seems irrelevant to whether the policy achieves its stated goals or not.

respondo2134 5y ago
then why are so many UBI proponents surprised when those who would bankroll this experiement fight it so hard?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. And for the record, I would appear to be in the group bankrolling it rather than receiving from it, and I'm completely cool with it.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    I don't think that's the mindset. The mindset is, "I worked for what I have, you can do the same"
    - seba_dos1 5y ago
      People with that mindset usually greatly overestimate the influence their work has on what they have and underestimate external factors, so pushing them to reevaluate may be a good thing.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        So, people that worked and earned what they have and are compensated accordingly don’t deserve it?
        seba_dos1 5y ago
        Do such people even exist? Being a programmer, what I earned is a result of several factors - most importantly investments made into me by my parents and by the society (with schools, infrastructure etc. mostly funded with taxes); and also plenty of pure luck and sheer coincidence. Only afterwards comes a lot of hard work I've put into learning what I know. Without the former, I would probably earn only a small fraction of that (and/or under much worse conditions) even assuming that I'd be putting the same amount of hard work. Alternatively, with more dumb luck I could be earning much more while putting less work into achieving that. Of course, this is just barely scratching the surface, as there are also other ways to get rich than working hard or being lucky; mere ability to invest your time and effort into "working hard" is often filled with external factors as well; and "being (un)lucky" itself contains so many factors to consider that I wouldn't even know where to start.
        tekknik 5y ago
        > Do such people even exist? You’re talking to one. I have no degree, am self taught and a software engineer. The most help I got was reading open source code, which was pretty difficult to do when I started. My parents had no money for school for me, and I joined the military to try to get some education. That still wasn’t enough to actually get a degree so I had to work low paying jobs knowing I could do better while working side projects to improve my skill. I just recently caught up to what I should be making. It’s common for those that took the standard path to think nobody works for what they got.
        seba_dos1 5y ago
        I'm not. You were able to read open source code and learn from it, taking advantage of a lot of effort its authors put into it (who knows, maybe you even stumbled on some of my work out there?). You had access to computers and to the Internet, and had time to use it, most likely thanks to your parents, which isn't a given. You admitted yourself that you turned into publicly funded military for it to invest into your education. You also had ability to do side projects while working a low paying job, instead of, say, taking care of an ill relative your whole spare time - not everyone is so lucky. And perhaps most importantly of it all, you turned your attention into software engineering during time when software engineering is extremely lucrative - it doesn't have to stay this way at all. I don't even have a degree, by the way; I'm mostly self-taught too.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - yes_really 5y ago
    It's not "I got mine, fuck you". It's "I got mine. You got yours. Now you want to take mine, fuck you".
  - tekknik 5y ago
    > It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. What it too to get mine, required very hard work and literally signing my life away for 4 years. Then, when I started gaining, I got fined for not having health insurance. Now that I can comfortably afford my health insurance and am starting to look at buying a house, here’s the left again saying I should help others, when I received no such help, and taking away the money I worked hard to earn. Imagine not having a degree in the software engineering field. The struggle is real, and if I can do it then what are others excuses? No, I’m sorry, I will fight to force others to follow my path (albeit in a different field should they choose). I will not willingly pay for others to have an easy life unless they are related to me.
    - seba_dos1 5y ago
      I never understood how twisted someone's mind has to be in order to say "I suffered, so I'll fight to make others suffer too".
      - tekknik 5y ago
        I’ve never understood why people are so willing to give up what they’ve earned for people who are not trying that just have their hand out. Why do we do it this way, those that want to help can pay the UBI tax and receive the payments. The rest of us that don’t want it can never receive it but also don’t have to pay. Why don’t we do that instead? Also I’m a Navy veteran. I can’t tell you how many times I can back from deployment to see actual hatred from these people I had never met, who I was defending their freedom for. The idea of helping others is gone after 1) I already did by defending their freedom and 2) most people here are assholes only thinking of themselves, so i joined them.
  - caskstrength 5y ago
    > It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. I haven't "got mine" yet and tend to disagree when people propose to lock me out of upper-middle class lifestyle by taxing the hell out of my income. It is more like people like you who "got theirs" want to pull the ladder up.
roamerz 5y ago
So what? Sounds like you should be part or a dictatorship rather than a democracy. If you support this idea then feel free to donate to the cause. Not trying to be an ass but the so what attitude does not tend to further constructive discussion.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > Sounds like you should be part or a dictatorship rather than a democracy. What a weird claim. Decisions in democracies upset some people too. That's the whole point of voting on things, to resolve conflicts. > If you support this idea then feel free to donate to the cause. Donate to what? > Not trying to be an ass but the so what attitude does not tend to further constructive discussion. "Some people will complain" isn't constructive by itself either.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    > That's the whole point of voting on things, to resolve conflicts. It doesn’t resolve the conflict, one side is just forced to accept something they don’t want. The hatred, and therefore the division, builds regardless.
- pc86 5y ago
  I would love to know what democracy you live in where nobody is ever upset by democratic decisions.
ipaddr 5y ago
Would those people have extra means to influence political laws to be more in their favor?

by pc86 5y ago

respondo2134 5y ago

then why are so many UBI proponents surprised when those who would bankroll this experiement fight it so hard?

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. And for the record, I would appear to be in the group bankrolling it rather than receiving from it, and I'm completely cool with it.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  I don't think that's the mindset. The mindset is, "I worked for what I have, you can do the same"
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    People with that mindset usually greatly overestimate the influence their work has on what they have and underestimate external factors, so pushing them to reevaluate may be a good thing.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      So, people that worked and earned what they have and are compensated accordingly don’t deserve it?
      - seba_dos1 5y ago
        Do such people even exist? Being a programmer, what I earned is a result of several factors - most importantly investments made into me by my parents and by the society (with schools, infrastructure etc. mostly funded with taxes); and also plenty of pure luck and sheer coincidence. Only afterwards comes a lot of hard work I've put into learning what I know. Without the former, I would probably earn only a small fraction of that (and/or under much worse conditions) even assuming that I'd be putting the same amount of hard work. Alternatively, with more dumb luck I could be earning much more while putting less work into achieving that. Of course, this is just barely scratching the surface, as there are also other ways to get rich than working hard or being lucky; mere ability to invest your time and effort into "working hard" is often filled with external factors as well; and "being (un)lucky" itself contains so many factors to consider that I wouldn't even know where to start.
        tekknik 5y ago
        > Do such people even exist? You’re talking to one. I have no degree, am self taught and a software engineer. The most help I got was reading open source code, which was pretty difficult to do when I started. My parents had no money for school for me, and I joined the military to try to get some education. That still wasn’t enough to actually get a degree so I had to work low paying jobs knowing I could do better while working side projects to improve my skill. I just recently caught up to what I should be making. It’s common for those that took the standard path to think nobody works for what they got.
        seba_dos1 5y ago
        I'm not. You were able to read open source code and learn from it, taking advantage of a lot of effort its authors put into it (who knows, maybe you even stumbled on some of my work out there?). You had access to computers and to the Internet, and had time to use it, most likely thanks to your parents, which isn't a given. You admitted yourself that you turned into publicly funded military for it to invest into your education. You also had ability to do side projects while working a low paying job, instead of, say, taking care of an ill relative your whole spare time - not everyone is so lucky. And perhaps most importantly of it all, you turned your attention into software engineering during time when software engineering is extremely lucrative - it doesn't have to stay this way at all. I don't even have a degree, by the way; I'm mostly self-taught too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- yes_really 5y ago
  It's not "I got mine, fuck you". It's "I got mine. You got yours. Now you want to take mine, fuck you".
- tekknik 5y ago
  > It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. What it too to get mine, required very hard work and literally signing my life away for 4 years. Then, when I started gaining, I got fined for not having health insurance. Now that I can comfortably afford my health insurance and am starting to look at buying a house, here’s the left again saying I should help others, when I received no such help, and taking away the money I worked hard to earn. Imagine not having a degree in the software engineering field. The struggle is real, and if I can do it then what are others excuses? No, I’m sorry, I will fight to force others to follow my path (albeit in a different field should they choose). I will not willingly pay for others to have an easy life unless they are related to me.
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    I never understood how twisted someone's mind has to be in order to say "I suffered, so I'll fight to make others suffer too".
    - tekknik 5y ago
      I’ve never understood why people are so willing to give up what they’ve earned for people who are not trying that just have their hand out. Why do we do it this way, those that want to help can pay the UBI tax and receive the payments. The rest of us that don’t want it can never receive it but also don’t have to pay. Why don’t we do that instead? Also I’m a Navy veteran. I can’t tell you how many times I can back from deployment to see actual hatred from these people I had never met, who I was defending their freedom for. The idea of helping others is gone after 1) I already did by defending their freedom and 2) most people here are assholes only thinking of themselves, so i joined them.
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. I haven't "got mine" yet and tend to disagree when people propose to lock me out of upper-middle class lifestyle by taxing the hell out of my income. It is more like people like you who "got theirs" want to pull the ladder up.

roamerz 5y ago

So what? Sounds like you should be part or a dictatorship rather than a democracy. If you support this idea then feel free to donate to the cause. Not trying to be an ass but the so what attitude does not tend to further constructive discussion.

Dylan16807 5y ago
> Sounds like you should be part or a dictatorship rather than a democracy. What a weird claim. Decisions in democracies upset some people too. That's the whole point of voting on things, to resolve conflicts. > If you support this idea then feel free to donate to the cause. Donate to what? > Not trying to be an ass but the so what attitude does not tend to further constructive discussion. "Some people will complain" isn't constructive by itself either.
- tekknik 5y ago
  > That's the whole point of voting on things, to resolve conflicts. It doesn’t resolve the conflict, one side is just forced to accept something they don’t want. The hatred, and therefore the division, builds regardless.
pc86 5y ago
I would love to know what democracy you live in where nobody is ever upset by democratic decisions.

ipaddr 5y ago

Would those people have extra means to influence political laws to be more in their favor?