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We've done that experiment. The results are self-evident. This isn't suggestive, valid science. It's the equivalent of setting up a "scientific" contraption th

We've done that experiment. The results are self-evident. This isn't suggestive, valid science. It's the equivalent of setting up a "scientific" contraption that purports to be a perpetual motion machine. You can create a pretty convincing fake perpetual motion machine, but because we have a broader theory of mechanics, we know perpetual motion is impossible, that the purported machine must be cheating somehow (even if it's not immediately obvious), and that to give funding for further study based on that machine's existence would be absolutely stupid.

mhh__ 5y ago
Which experiment? You mean the welfare queen concept?
klyrs 5y ago
> We've done that experiment. The results are self-evident. Do you mean the Alaska Permanent Fund, or something else?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  That’s exactly what I assumed. I think it would be a pretty hard argument to say that Alaskans are lazy because of their permanent fund.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    Last year’s APF dividend was $1100. That’s a figure for the whole year, not monthly. Food stamps pay more than that.
Dylan16807 5y ago
We've done a long-term wide-scale UBI experiment? Where? I hope you don't mean any fickle systems tied to covid, and I especially hope you don't mean the unemployment boost the US did; unemployment pay is very different from basic income. And even if something fails, that doesn't prove it's some kind of impossibility like perpetual motion machines.
- Aunche 5y ago
  The closest analogue to true UBI goes on in the oil-rich Gulf nations. Citizens are basically guarenteed a job where they don't even need to show up, which is basically an inefficient form of UBI. Some, like Saudi Arabia are transitioning to true UBI. The result of this is that these nations are completely reliant on foreign labor. Both skilled on unskilled work is dominated by foreigners. The latter have enough leverage to live comfortably. Unfortunately for unskilled workers, they're kept in slavery-like conditions and even have their passports taken away because otherwise, the cost of living would be too high for citizens to live off state income.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    How much does that job pay compared to other things, and compared to the poverty line? What's a specific country I should look at here? It's definitely possible to give away too much, but that's not a good argument that $0 is optimal.
    - Aunche 5y ago
      Hard to find good sources but Kuwait had a median household income of $40k. Meanwhile, almost 1 million workers make less than $300 a month, so Kuwait citizen families likely make a lot more than $40k. https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/kuwait/almost-1m-foreigners-earn-less-than-300-1.333216 https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/kuwait/almost-1m-foreigners-... The purpose of money is a medium of exchange for goods and services. Giving money for the sake of nothing defeats the entire purpose of money, because you're giving everyone money without creating new good and services. Note that this is different from conditional payments like food stamps or pensions, which serve the purpose of insurance. This is also different from welfare, which is targeted towards certain people in hopes of improving their well-being.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        > Hard to find good sources but Kuwait had a median household income of $40k. Meanwhile, almost 1 million workers make less than $300 a month, so Kuwait citizen families likely make a lot more than $40k. Yeah that sounds pretty unbalanced. > The purpose of money is a medium of exchange for goods and services. Giving money for the sake of nothing defeats the entire purpose of money, because you're giving everyone money without creating new good and services. Note that this is different from conditional payments like food stamps or pensions, which serve the purpose of insurance. This is also different from welfare, which is targeted towards certain people in hopes of improving their well-being. People get lots of things for "free", like infrastructure, and that doesn't defeat the purpose of money. Basic income isn't "for the sake of nothing". What conditions do you think are important for food stamps and welfare? If a certain level of low income is good enough, that's basically equivalent to universal income plus progressive taxation.
DaltonCoffee 5y ago
>We've done that experiment. The results are self-evident I think the real experiment is perpetual consumerism and unchecked global free market capitalism. Some places that could be considered a UBI welfare state would be Scandinavian countries or parts of Canada, hardly examples of self-evident failures.
- JacobThreeThree 5y ago
  >Some places that could be considered a UBI welfare state would be Scandinavian countries or parts of Canada Canada does not have any UBI. What are you referring to?
  - DaltonCoffee 5y ago
    The welfare and employment insurance system in parts of Canada (ie: those parts with little or seasonal employment) are effectively UBI.
    - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
      EI is not even close to what is commonly described as UBI. Not universal at all.
      - DaltonCoffee 5y ago
        Welfare and EI combined = jury rigged UBI
CoastalCoder 5y ago
People can have different opinions about the generalizability of the lessons from a single experiment. So let's not be quick to call others' views "stupid".

mhh__ 5y ago

Which experiment? You mean the welfare queen concept?

klyrs 5y ago

> We've done that experiment. The results are self-evident. Do you mean the Alaska Permanent Fund, or something else?

ashtonkem 5y ago
That’s exactly what I assumed. I think it would be a pretty hard argument to say that Alaskans are lazy because of their permanent fund.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Last year’s APF dividend was $1100. That’s a figure for the whole year, not monthly. Food stamps pay more than that.

Dylan16807 5y ago

We've done a long-term wide-scale UBI experiment? Where? I hope you don't mean any fickle systems tied to covid, and I especially hope you don't mean the unemployment boost the US did; unemployment pay is very different from basic income. And even if something fails, that doesn't prove it's some kind of impossibility like perpetual motion machines.

Aunche 5y ago
The closest analogue to true UBI goes on in the oil-rich Gulf nations. Citizens are basically guarenteed a job where they don't even need to show up, which is basically an inefficient form of UBI. Some, like Saudi Arabia are transitioning to true UBI. The result of this is that these nations are completely reliant on foreign labor. Both skilled on unskilled work is dominated by foreigners. The latter have enough leverage to live comfortably. Unfortunately for unskilled workers, they're kept in slavery-like conditions and even have their passports taken away because otherwise, the cost of living would be too high for citizens to live off state income.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  How much does that job pay compared to other things, and compared to the poverty line? What's a specific country I should look at here? It's definitely possible to give away too much, but that's not a good argument that $0 is optimal.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    Hard to find good sources but Kuwait had a median household income of $40k. Meanwhile, almost 1 million workers make less than $300 a month, so Kuwait citizen families likely make a lot more than $40k. https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/kuwait/almost-1m-foreigners-earn-less-than-300-1.333216 https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/kuwait/almost-1m-foreigners-... The purpose of money is a medium of exchange for goods and services. Giving money for the sake of nothing defeats the entire purpose of money, because you're giving everyone money without creating new good and services. Note that this is different from conditional payments like food stamps or pensions, which serve the purpose of insurance. This is also different from welfare, which is targeted towards certain people in hopes of improving their well-being.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      > Hard to find good sources but Kuwait had a median household income of $40k. Meanwhile, almost 1 million workers make less than $300 a month, so Kuwait citizen families likely make a lot more than $40k. Yeah that sounds pretty unbalanced. > The purpose of money is a medium of exchange for goods and services. Giving money for the sake of nothing defeats the entire purpose of money, because you're giving everyone money without creating new good and services. Note that this is different from conditional payments like food stamps or pensions, which serve the purpose of insurance. This is also different from welfare, which is targeted towards certain people in hopes of improving their well-being. People get lots of things for "free", like infrastructure, and that doesn't defeat the purpose of money. Basic income isn't "for the sake of nothing". What conditions do you think are important for food stamps and welfare? If a certain level of low income is good enough, that's basically equivalent to universal income plus progressive taxation.

DaltonCoffee 5y ago

>We've done that experiment. The results are self-evident I think the real experiment is perpetual consumerism and unchecked global free market capitalism. Some places that could be considered a UBI welfare state would be Scandinavian countries or parts of Canada, hardly examples of self-evident failures.

JacobThreeThree 5y ago
>Some places that could be considered a UBI welfare state would be Scandinavian countries or parts of Canada Canada does not have any UBI. What are you referring to?
- DaltonCoffee 5y ago
  The welfare and employment insurance system in parts of Canada (ie: those parts with little or seasonal employment) are effectively UBI.
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    EI is not even close to what is commonly described as UBI. Not universal at all.
    - DaltonCoffee 5y ago
      Welfare and EI combined = jury rigged UBI

CoastalCoder 5y ago

People can have different opinions about the generalizability of the lessons from a single experiment. So let's not be quick to call others' views "stupid".