4 ms·

This should really only ever happen with wireless connections. You should always be able to tell what switchport a computer is connected to and work from there.

mrspuratic 5y ago
Switch port? Jump back a few decades and try combined kilometers of shared coax runs that effectively become embedded into a building over years of redecoration...
growt 5y ago
And then? The cable disappears into a wall together with 100s of other cables (which most likely are not labeled or not correctly, otherwise you wouldn't have lost the machine in the first place)
- suifbwish 5y ago
  It is completely irresponsible and without excuse for any main network operator/owner to not be completely aware of what each and every cable does which is connected to a switch/network router. If the owner refuses to determine this, they are responsible if there is a nefarious device on the network until they do. Wireless makes this much more complicated so any responsible admin will ensure the wireless network is completely isolated from the physical network and is privileged to only access the internet or separate devices.
  - ldiracdelta 5y ago
    I've seen bundles of cat 5 cabling the girth of a 100 year old oak tree. No chance anyone knows every cable in such a data center.
  - chiph 5y ago
    We moved into a building where the drop-ceiling had pretty much every generation of cable, going back to Twinax used by IBM 5250 terminals. Previous tenants had cut the connectors off and just shoved them up there when they moved out. Network documentation in this case? No way. The only option is to pull it all out for recycling, and start over.
  - TabTwo 5y ago
    Customer site, big insurance company. The started documenting cables and labeling them to get rid of old faulty documentation. Half way through their security department forced them to stop. Why? If an attacker gains access to the documentation he would have all the information he needed. So, the had three types of cables: old ones with faulty labels, cables with right labels and unlabeled cables. And then there was me, in the server room at 3 a.m. tracing a cable by pulling up floor tiles because the cable was handmade and the rj45 plug wouldn’t fit into the new switch we installed that night.
    - michaelt 5y ago
      > Half way through their security department forced them to stop. Why? If an attacker gains access to the documentation he would have all the information he needed. Some IT security departments have very confused ideas.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    This is a silly take. People and orgs have a million reasons why their cables might be unlabeled. Shame on you for binary thinking without considering real world confounding factors.
    - suifbwish 5y ago
      What I am hearing is that is that it is not practical to expect network admins to be in control of their networks and sub-sequentially it is not practical to ensure no malicious devices are plugged into enterprise networks. Just because it’s difficult to do doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.
      - IggleSniggle 5y ago
        What you should be hearing is that it’s not necessarily irresponsible for somebody not to know something when they are inheriting a system, and that it’s totally reasonable to expect to encounter poorly done systems in the real world that need someone to fix them. It’s often the case that somebody slapped something together in an area that wasn’t their expertise, it’s been noticed that it’s a real problem, and someone has been hired to fix that problem. The “not knowing” is often the reason they’ve been hired. Trying to sort out a real world scenario (while also handling other needs of the org) is almost definitionally Taking Responsibility. So let’s not shit on people trying to cleanup a bad situation by calling them irresponsible for not knowing.
      - imwillofficial 5y ago
        Suif, you have a lot to learn my friend. First is speaking in such absolutes. The more senior I get, the more I realize there are often a multitude of reasons things are the way they are, and many times those are valid reasons, when seeing something that is broken. Taking a beat before pontificating and making a fool of yourself will save a ton of heartache in your career. When you see something so broken, ask yourself why? Then ask somebody else. Some highlights from my career: 1) Last guy got cancer in the middle of a build. 2) Last guy worked his way up from one man help desk to Linux guru over 15 years all on his own, but was so busy putting out fires, he never had the chance to improve things. 3) Project started out as a proof of concept and was intended to be torn down. 4) Due to government contracts, the system has to be maintained exactly as delivered, no labels even allowed, and obviously no IT staff(?!) To make spreadsheets. Everything was paper notes by operators. 5) Pure laziness and incompetence as you alluded to. All this to say, more often than not there is a good reason something is fucked up, finding out why may help you fix it (like in the case of politics, budget issues, firefighting, priorities, etc..)
suifbwish 5y ago
One of the many reasons that I dislike the push towards wifi/wireless for everything. It makes my hair stand on end to see people using wireless keyboards (which people usually have for at least 5 years). People seem so disgusted when you even suggest that these things are inherently bad ideas which will inevitably lead to consequences and immediately push you into a naysayer/antiprogressive category verbally or silently.
- iakov 5y ago
  Have you considered that using a wireless keyboard and other tech is OK under their threat model? I use one at home and I honestly can not see any downside to it.
- snapcaster 5y ago
  Can you explain in clear ways how the person you're telling this to will directly be harmed?
  - philipswood 5y ago
    To a mildly capable and somewhat determined attacker (who can get relatively close to you) this means your keyboard is probably readable from the radio signals. A Physical keystroke logger if you want to think of it that way.
  - sgerenser 5y ago
    I just recently learned that Logitech unifying receivers were susceptible to “mousejacking”[1] for years before a firmware update fixed it in 2016. There’s still probably many non-updated receivers out there. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/14/20692471/logitech-mousejack-wireless-usb-receiver-vulnerable-hack-hijack https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/14/20692471/logitech-mouseja...
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Explain to me exactly how wireless keyboards are “ inherently bad ideas”, and not something that can be fixed with a robust technical solution?
Jaruzel 5y ago
Back in the 90s, I recall something similar. Due to cost of hardware, networking wasn't as hi-tech as it is now. So it would be common for medium sized office buildings to have CAT3/5 cables trunked from everywhere in the building down to a central patch room, in which there would be 1000s of patch ports and patch cables stringing everywhere into discrete hubs that had no-onboard management. To trace a connection you'd have to start with the wall or floor port number that the end device was plugged into, and hope it's mapped correctly to a patch panel/port number in the patch room, and then manually trace any patch cable from there onwards to the hub etc. The whole system falls apart when you have no idea where in the building the end device is, if you are lucky there may be a managed switch on the network route somewhere that may help you narrow down the location somewhat. So yes, it did happen sometimes that the only way to find a box was to send a desktop alert and hope the admin of that box contacted you.
wink 5y ago
This was roughly 19 years ago and my department was not in any way involved with the networking. Sure, in an ideal world that would be possible - but we didn't even have access to the switches. So either it's trying to hunt down the other department in another building who /might/ solve that riddle in an unspecified amount of time... or just do it :)

mrspuratic 5y ago

Switch port? Jump back a few decades and try combined kilometers of shared coax runs that effectively become embedded into a building over years of redecoration...

growt 5y ago

And then? The cable disappears into a wall together with 100s of other cables (which most likely are not labeled or not correctly, otherwise you wouldn't have lost the machine in the first place)

suifbwish 5y ago
It is completely irresponsible and without excuse for any main network operator/owner to not be completely aware of what each and every cable does which is connected to a switch/network router. If the owner refuses to determine this, they are responsible if there is a nefarious device on the network until they do. Wireless makes this much more complicated so any responsible admin will ensure the wireless network is completely isolated from the physical network and is privileged to only access the internet or separate devices.
- ldiracdelta 5y ago
  I've seen bundles of cat 5 cabling the girth of a 100 year old oak tree. No chance anyone knows every cable in such a data center.
- chiph 5y ago
  We moved into a building where the drop-ceiling had pretty much every generation of cable, going back to Twinax used by IBM 5250 terminals. Previous tenants had cut the connectors off and just shoved them up there when they moved out. Network documentation in this case? No way. The only option is to pull it all out for recycling, and start over.
- TabTwo 5y ago
  Customer site, big insurance company. The started documenting cables and labeling them to get rid of old faulty documentation. Half way through their security department forced them to stop. Why? If an attacker gains access to the documentation he would have all the information he needed. So, the had three types of cables: old ones with faulty labels, cables with right labels and unlabeled cables. And then there was me, in the server room at 3 a.m. tracing a cable by pulling up floor tiles because the cable was handmade and the rj45 plug wouldn’t fit into the new switch we installed that night.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    > Half way through their security department forced them to stop. Why? If an attacker gains access to the documentation he would have all the information he needed. Some IT security departments have very confused ideas.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  This is a silly take. People and orgs have a million reasons why their cables might be unlabeled. Shame on you for binary thinking without considering real world confounding factors.
  - suifbwish 5y ago
    What I am hearing is that is that it is not practical to expect network admins to be in control of their networks and sub-sequentially it is not practical to ensure no malicious devices are plugged into enterprise networks. Just because it’s difficult to do doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.
    - IggleSniggle 5y ago
      What you should be hearing is that it’s not necessarily irresponsible for somebody not to know something when they are inheriting a system, and that it’s totally reasonable to expect to encounter poorly done systems in the real world that need someone to fix them. It’s often the case that somebody slapped something together in an area that wasn’t their expertise, it’s been noticed that it’s a real problem, and someone has been hired to fix that problem. The “not knowing” is often the reason they’ve been hired. Trying to sort out a real world scenario (while also handling other needs of the org) is almost definitionally Taking Responsibility. So let’s not shit on people trying to cleanup a bad situation by calling them irresponsible for not knowing.
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Suif, you have a lot to learn my friend. First is speaking in such absolutes. The more senior I get, the more I realize there are often a multitude of reasons things are the way they are, and many times those are valid reasons, when seeing something that is broken. Taking a beat before pontificating and making a fool of yourself will save a ton of heartache in your career. When you see something so broken, ask yourself why? Then ask somebody else. Some highlights from my career: 1) Last guy got cancer in the middle of a build. 2) Last guy worked his way up from one man help desk to Linux guru over 15 years all on his own, but was so busy putting out fires, he never had the chance to improve things. 3) Project started out as a proof of concept and was intended to be torn down. 4) Due to government contracts, the system has to be maintained exactly as delivered, no labels even allowed, and obviously no IT staff(?!) To make spreadsheets. Everything was paper notes by operators. 5) Pure laziness and incompetence as you alluded to. All this to say, more often than not there is a good reason something is fucked up, finding out why may help you fix it (like in the case of politics, budget issues, firefighting, priorities, etc..)

suifbwish 5y ago

One of the many reasons that I dislike the push towards wifi/wireless for everything. It makes my hair stand on end to see people using wireless keyboards (which people usually have for at least 5 years). People seem so disgusted when you even suggest that these things are inherently bad ideas which will inevitably lead to consequences and immediately push you into a naysayer/antiprogressive category verbally or silently.

iakov 5y ago
Have you considered that using a wireless keyboard and other tech is OK under their threat model? I use one at home and I honestly can not see any downside to it.
snapcaster 5y ago
Can you explain in clear ways how the person you're telling this to will directly be harmed?
- philipswood 5y ago
  To a mildly capable and somewhat determined attacker (who can get relatively close to you) this means your keyboard is probably readable from the radio signals. A Physical keystroke logger if you want to think of it that way.
- sgerenser 5y ago
  I just recently learned that Logitech unifying receivers were susceptible to “mousejacking”[1] for years before a firmware update fixed it in 2016. There’s still probably many non-updated receivers out there. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/14/20692471/logitech-mousejack-wireless-usb-receiver-vulnerable-hack-hijack https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/14/20692471/logitech-mouseja...
imwillofficial 5y ago
Explain to me exactly how wireless keyboards are “ inherently bad ideas”, and not something that can be fixed with a robust technical solution?

Jaruzel 5y ago

Back in the 90s, I recall something similar. Due to cost of hardware, networking wasn't as hi-tech as it is now. So it would be common for medium sized office buildings to have CAT3/5 cables trunked from everywhere in the building down to a central patch room, in which there would be 1000s of patch ports and patch cables stringing everywhere into discrete hubs that had no-onboard management. To trace a connection you'd have to start with the wall or floor port number that the end device was plugged into, and hope it's mapped correctly to a patch panel/port number in the patch room, and then manually trace any patch cable from there onwards to the hub etc. The whole system falls apart when you have no idea where in the building the end device is, if you are lucky there may be a managed switch on the network route somewhere that may help you narrow down the location somewhat. So yes, it did happen sometimes that the only way to find a box was to send a desktop alert and hope the admin of that box contacted you.

wink 5y ago

This was roughly 19 years ago and my department was not in any way involved with the networking. Sure, in an ideal world that would be possible - but we didn't even have access to the switches. So either it's trying to hunt down the other department in another building who /might/ solve that riddle in an unspecified amount of time... or just do it :)