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While one can appreciate the candid and not at all surprising UP explanation as to the effective abrogation of justice in our coastal la la land, this is also a

While one can appreciate the candid and not at all surprising UP explanation as to the effective abrogation of justice in our coastal la la land, this is also a cop-out: train looting isn't some unexpected phenomena that started earlier this month; here is video of this happening in Chicago at least two years ago[1]. These operators are not taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money. Unfortunately our increasingly 'low trust society' has a cost and UP et al. need to figure this out and adapt accordingly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6lIqYoamo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6lIqYoamo

rdtsc 5y ago
What could they do? They increased the arrests (they have that authority, interestingly enough) and surveillance efforts, but the people they catch are back out on the street within 24 hours, just in time to catch the next train. Perhaps, alter their schedule to ensure the train never stops in certain areas so there is no chance to hop on and open the locks?
- anovikov 5y ago
  How do they get out so quickly? Also i think in this particular case (since thefts are happening on private, fenced territory) it's easier to fix by a small adjustments in law, essentially allowing guards to shoot to kill on sight - so that thieves are not arrested, just eliminated. Normally that wouldn't be a possibility because of chances of mistakes, but here's there's no way to make a mistake - anyone within the fenced area not wearing a uniform and a service ID can be shot to kill on sight and that will be it. Put appropriate markings on fences.
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    Due to the LA’s “progressive” prosecutorial policies. It’s seemed to be designed to artificially lower the crime and incarceration stats. The train company actually runs it’s own police force. So it can arrest these people. Then they turn them over to the local authorities, which often doesn’t even book them. Some just pay a nominal fine like they might for speeding.
  - pmorici 5y ago
    The local prosecutor is extremely lenient and just lets even obvious serial offenders go under the guise of criminal justice reform.
    - cperciva 5y ago
      Does the USA not allow for private prosecutions when the state declines to prosecute crimes?
      - pmorici 5y ago
        I don’t think so, a private party can sue someone for money but not to directly pursue criminal charges to jail a person without the government being involved.
      - tedunangst 5y ago
        Only in a few states.
  - shepherdjerred 5y ago
    A militant railroad sounds like a fantastic dystopian backstory
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    Except for the most extreme offenders, the LA DA let's everyone out the same day they're booked, and according to UP a lot of the thiefs aren't even being booked. I'd like to think there's a middle ground between the current situation and "shoot to kill"
    - anovikov 5y ago
      I heard that in many cases thieves are able to sue back and sometimes win cases arguing they are victims of racism etc, which makes guards and business they guard, reluctant to push the cases. "Shoot to kill" may be a fix to this. Also, just plain improvement of physical security may work, like electric fences and better locks.
- ridaj 5y ago
  Prevent the theft, don't just deter it through legal consequences. Increase perimeter security (barbed wire, electrical fence) so that it's harder to get onto the rails in the first place. Keep trains moving - don't park them for hours in dense metro areas with poor perimeter security. Get better locks. Or, partner with Mark Rober to create a giant train-car-sized glitter bomb that will douse thieves in glitter and fart spray when entered.
  - johnebgd 5y ago
    Mark Rober solution is the only realistic option for California. Not likely they will incarcerate non-violent criminals. Waste their time, stink up their homes and cars with fart spray, stick glitter on everything, and put the entirety of it on YouTube for ad revenue to pay for it all. Seems like a real win for society in absence of competent government.
    - ridaj 5y ago
      Or just keep trains moving. I'm shocked that US freight trains are left parked for so long in areas known to be theft-prone with poor fencing. I don't think these kinds of thieves would risk their lives going after a train running full speed.
      - financetechbro 5y ago
        Trains in the US don’t just stay parked for no reason. The route that this article discusses goes to a train yard in LA, due to the logistics of __very long train__ and limited amounts of rail bandwidth, trains move very slow / stop at times when entering these facilities. It would be impossible for the train to be running full speed here.
        ridaj 5y ago
        Right. In other words the amount of vulnerable wait time is a direct consequence of wanting to fit ever increasing amounts of cargo on fixed infrastructure. How do truck shippers protect their wares? 1 driver per truck with eyes on the load all the way through. If they have to take a nap, it's in the truck... How do valuables travel? In armored cars with armed personnel. The train company isn't entitled to its business model of very long trains with loose security.
- storyinmemo 5y ago
  "This is the lockpicking lawyer, and what I have for you today is a padlock." Possibly something like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVQTt4CgNZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVQTt4CgNZs
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    A $50 cordless angle grinder would defeat it, I would think. Something like this might slow it down some https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200315235_200315235 https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200315235_2003... but still, an angle grinder is pretty effective.
- somerandomqaguy 5y ago
  Wasn't there talk of just welding the doors shut and then grinding off the weld when they arrived at where ever?
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    That might slow them down. Though I doubt they are picking those locks. Pretty sure an angle grinder is a standard tool in arsenal of the criminals. They are not even that expensive. If they are two locks, two people can start cutting in parallel.
- pengaru 5y ago
  You guard your cargo, plain and simple. If the thieves are back on the street, you're still on guard, what difference does that make? It's not like the guards should expect to go on vacation because they arrested a thief.
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    It not as easy to guard a 100 car long train. It can be over a mile long. It may make sense if there is only one short stretch where theft happen. Just have guards there every 50 feet perhaps. But that’s a lot guards still.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      Who said taking on the burden of hauling so much cargo was going to be easy? If they're taking on the responsibility, they must pass the security costs on and do the job properly. We're talking about one of the most mature industries in the nation, having longstanding established legal exceptions to empower their success and stability. The violin appropriate here is so small I seem to have lost it. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/29/us/complaints-rise-against-nations-railroad-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/29/us/complaints-rise-agains...
ars 5y ago
What exactly are you advocating here? That they shoot them? The vast vast vast majority of the US runs on trust, and lack of crime. If every single business had to protect itself from any possible crime the entire country would grind to a halt. There are countries like that in the world, and parts of the US. There are derogatory names applied to such places. I do not wish a world where the only solution is "taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money." I wish a world where the rule of law makes such measures unnecessary.
- mraudiobook_com 5y ago
- topspin 5y ago
  "I wish a world where the rule of law makes such measures unnecessary." That world is gone; only its vestiges remain and they're fading fast. This "rule of law" you cling to is considered a harm; one of a long list of inequities our Powers That Be are directing all of their effort -- literally every decision or indecision they take -- toward correcting. This is what their virtue demands.
zozbot234 5y ago
> These operators are not taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money. This might simply be the most cost-effective approach for now. Insure the cargo against theft to protect their customers, and call it a day. They can work on having better security that takes the "problem" into account while minimizing costs, but this would take some time to implement.

rdtsc 5y ago

What could they do? They increased the arrests (they have that authority, interestingly enough) and surveillance efforts, but the people they catch are back out on the street within 24 hours, just in time to catch the next train. Perhaps, alter their schedule to ensure the train never stops in certain areas so there is no chance to hop on and open the locks?

anovikov 5y ago
How do they get out so quickly? Also i think in this particular case (since thefts are happening on private, fenced territory) it's easier to fix by a small adjustments in law, essentially allowing guards to shoot to kill on sight - so that thieves are not arrested, just eliminated. Normally that wouldn't be a possibility because of chances of mistakes, but here's there's no way to make a mistake - anyone within the fenced area not wearing a uniform and a service ID can be shot to kill on sight and that will be it. Put appropriate markings on fences.
- rdtsc 5y ago
  Due to the LA’s “progressive” prosecutorial policies. It’s seemed to be designed to artificially lower the crime and incarceration stats. The train company actually runs it’s own police force. So it can arrest these people. Then they turn them over to the local authorities, which often doesn’t even book them. Some just pay a nominal fine like they might for speeding.
- pmorici 5y ago
  The local prosecutor is extremely lenient and just lets even obvious serial offenders go under the guise of criminal justice reform.
  - cperciva 5y ago
    Does the USA not allow for private prosecutions when the state declines to prosecute crimes?
    - pmorici 5y ago
      I don’t think so, a private party can sue someone for money but not to directly pursue criminal charges to jail a person without the government being involved.
    - tedunangst 5y ago
      Only in a few states.
- shepherdjerred 5y ago
  A militant railroad sounds like a fantastic dystopian backstory
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  Except for the most extreme offenders, the LA DA let's everyone out the same day they're booked, and according to UP a lot of the thiefs aren't even being booked. I'd like to think there's a middle ground between the current situation and "shoot to kill"
  - anovikov 5y ago
    I heard that in many cases thieves are able to sue back and sometimes win cases arguing they are victims of racism etc, which makes guards and business they guard, reluctant to push the cases. "Shoot to kill" may be a fix to this. Also, just plain improvement of physical security may work, like electric fences and better locks.
ridaj 5y ago
Prevent the theft, don't just deter it through legal consequences. Increase perimeter security (barbed wire, electrical fence) so that it's harder to get onto the rails in the first place. Keep trains moving - don't park them for hours in dense metro areas with poor perimeter security. Get better locks. Or, partner with Mark Rober to create a giant train-car-sized glitter bomb that will douse thieves in glitter and fart spray when entered.
- johnebgd 5y ago
  Mark Rober solution is the only realistic option for California. Not likely they will incarcerate non-violent criminals. Waste their time, stink up their homes and cars with fart spray, stick glitter on everything, and put the entirety of it on YouTube for ad revenue to pay for it all. Seems like a real win for society in absence of competent government.
  - ridaj 5y ago
    Or just keep trains moving. I'm shocked that US freight trains are left parked for so long in areas known to be theft-prone with poor fencing. I don't think these kinds of thieves would risk their lives going after a train running full speed.
    - financetechbro 5y ago
      Trains in the US don’t just stay parked for no reason. The route that this article discusses goes to a train yard in LA, due to the logistics of __very long train__ and limited amounts of rail bandwidth, trains move very slow / stop at times when entering these facilities. It would be impossible for the train to be running full speed here.
      - ridaj 5y ago
        Right. In other words the amount of vulnerable wait time is a direct consequence of wanting to fit ever increasing amounts of cargo on fixed infrastructure. How do truck shippers protect their wares? 1 driver per truck with eyes on the load all the way through. If they have to take a nap, it's in the truck... How do valuables travel? In armored cars with armed personnel. The train company isn't entitled to its business model of very long trains with loose security.
storyinmemo 5y ago
"This is the lockpicking lawyer, and what I have for you today is a padlock." Possibly something like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVQTt4CgNZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVQTt4CgNZs
- rdtsc 5y ago
  A $50 cordless angle grinder would defeat it, I would think. Something like this might slow it down some https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200315235_200315235 https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200315235_2003... but still, an angle grinder is pretty effective.
somerandomqaguy 5y ago
Wasn't there talk of just welding the doors shut and then grinding off the weld when they arrived at where ever?
- rdtsc 5y ago
  That might slow them down. Though I doubt they are picking those locks. Pretty sure an angle grinder is a standard tool in arsenal of the criminals. They are not even that expensive. If they are two locks, two people can start cutting in parallel.
pengaru 5y ago
You guard your cargo, plain and simple. If the thieves are back on the street, you're still on guard, what difference does that make? It's not like the guards should expect to go on vacation because they arrested a thief.
- rdtsc 5y ago
  It not as easy to guard a 100 car long train. It can be over a mile long. It may make sense if there is only one short stretch where theft happen. Just have guards there every 50 feet perhaps. But that’s a lot guards still.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    Who said taking on the burden of hauling so much cargo was going to be easy? If they're taking on the responsibility, they must pass the security costs on and do the job properly. We're talking about one of the most mature industries in the nation, having longstanding established legal exceptions to empower their success and stability. The violin appropriate here is so small I seem to have lost it. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/29/us/complaints-rise-against-nations-railroad-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/29/us/complaints-rise-agains...

ars 5y ago

What exactly are you advocating here? That they shoot them? The vast vast vast majority of the US runs on trust, and lack of crime. If every single business had to protect itself from any possible crime the entire country would grind to a halt. There are countries like that in the world, and parts of the US. There are derogatory names applied to such places. I do not wish a world where the only solution is "taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money." I wish a world where the rule of law makes such measures unnecessary.

mraudiobook_com 5y ago
topspin 5y ago
"I wish a world where the rule of law makes such measures unnecessary." That world is gone; only its vestiges remain and they're fading fast. This "rule of law" you cling to is considered a harm; one of a long list of inequities our Powers That Be are directing all of their effort -- literally every decision or indecision they take -- toward correcting. This is what their virtue demands.

zozbot234 5y ago

> These operators are not taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money. This might simply be the most cost-effective approach for now. Insure the cargo against theft to protect their customers, and call it a day. They can work on having better security that takes the "problem" into account while minimizing costs, but this would take some time to implement.