4 ms·

This is the subject line of an email in my inbox right now. Sure you could say the sender allows me to opt out but I shouldn't have to opt out. This isn't legal

by pooper 5y ago

This is the subject line of an email in my inbox right now. Sure you could say the sender allows me to opt out but I shouldn't have to opt out. This isn't legally spam but I want to know what you would call this unsolicited, non-transactional commercial email. » Your Prime Membership: {{first name}} {{last name}}, discover the latest in deals and entertainment included with Prime

Karunamon 5y ago
>I want to know what you would call this unsolicited, non-transactional commercial email. Commercial email, differentiated from spam in that you have a commercial relationship with Amazon that you initiated and agreed to (i.e. solicited), and as such, they are allowed to market to you until such time as you ask them to stop. I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  > I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.
  - Karunamon 5y ago
    ..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam, as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.
    - wl 5y ago
      I'm disappointed to see spamming apologia here. Did I sign up for a mailing list? Yes - not spam No - spam. Creating an account with a company is not signing up for mailing lists unless there's a choice presented. Yeah, you can hide consent in the ToS that nobody reads, but that's not asking for permission.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      In practice, there is little difference between "junk email" which I assume you mean scams/phishing/pills/viagra/etc adverts and that Amazon email. Both take space in your inbox, may send you a notification and require time and brain power to deal with. Whether the latter example may comply with some jurisdiction's definition of "spam" is irrelevant. The "mark as spam" button gives users the ability to keep their inbox clean and you shouldn't be faulting them for using it. Not to mention, even if we agree for a minute that the report spam button should only be used for emails that conform to the legal definition of spam, which law should we be following? The US' definition of spam is much more liberal than the EU GDPR's one for example.
    - majewsky 5y ago
      Ok, let's use "spam email" for what you consider spam and add a new category for unsolicited trash from known senders, e.g. "trash email".
    - Nullabillity 5y ago
      It is the exact correct button for that kind of shit, and it sounds like you need to reevaluate what it is you're trying to optimize for.
    - teakettle42 5y ago
      > actual spam, as in, actual unsolicited junk email solicit, v 1. To ask from with earnestness unsolicited, adj 1. not asked for Your justifications hinge entirely on a very unusual and rather tortured definition of “solicit”.
    - krageon 5y ago
      > false positives It's not a false positive. The filter needs to be tuned to what your users think is spam, that is what spam filters are for. You are not the gatekeeper of what other people are allowed to think is spam.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > you have a commercial relationship with Amazon that you initiated and agreed to (i.e. solicited), and as such, they are allowed to market to you That's not what that word means. I didn't solicit marketing emails; the only emails I asked for were the bare minimum to open an account and anything needed for orders that I initiated.
- Khaine 5y ago
  you do know, another name for spam is unsolicited commercial email (UCE), right? That is exactly what that crap is, since a) the person didn't want it (unsolicited), b) its relating to commerce, and c) its an email.

by pooper 5y ago

Karunamon 5y ago

>I want to know what you would call this unsolicited, non-transactional commercial email. Commercial email, differentiated from spam in that you have a commercial relationship with Amazon that you initiated and agreed to (i.e. solicited), and as such, they are allowed to market to you until such time as you ask them to stop. I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN.

teakettle42 5y ago
> I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.
- Karunamon 5y ago
  ..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam, as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.
  - wl 5y ago
    I'm disappointed to see spamming apologia here. Did I sign up for a mailing list? Yes - not spam No - spam. Creating an account with a company is not signing up for mailing lists unless there's a choice presented. Yeah, you can hide consent in the ToS that nobody reads, but that's not asking for permission.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    In practice, there is little difference between "junk email" which I assume you mean scams/phishing/pills/viagra/etc adverts and that Amazon email. Both take space in your inbox, may send you a notification and require time and brain power to deal with. Whether the latter example may comply with some jurisdiction's definition of "spam" is irrelevant. The "mark as spam" button gives users the ability to keep their inbox clean and you shouldn't be faulting them for using it. Not to mention, even if we agree for a minute that the report spam button should only be used for emails that conform to the legal definition of spam, which law should we be following? The US' definition of spam is much more liberal than the EU GDPR's one for example.
  - majewsky 5y ago
    Ok, let's use "spam email" for what you consider spam and add a new category for unsolicited trash from known senders, e.g. "trash email".
  - Nullabillity 5y ago
    It is the exact correct button for that kind of shit, and it sounds like you need to reevaluate what it is you're trying to optimize for.
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    > actual spam, as in, actual unsolicited junk email solicit, v 1. To ask from with earnestness unsolicited, adj 1. not asked for Your justifications hinge entirely on a very unusual and rather tortured definition of “solicit”.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > false positives It's not a false positive. The filter needs to be tuned to what your users think is spam, that is what spam filters are for. You are not the gatekeeper of what other people are allowed to think is spam.
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> you have a commercial relationship with Amazon that you initiated and agreed to (i.e. solicited), and as such, they are allowed to market to you That's not what that word means. I didn't solicit marketing emails; the only emails I asked for were the bare minimum to open an account and anything needed for orders that I initiated.
Khaine 5y ago
you do know, another name for spam is unsolicited commercial email (UCE), right? That is exactly what that crap is, since a) the person didn't want it (unsolicited), b) its relating to commerce, and c) its an email.