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I've worked with under-skilled developers all over the world. Including NL where I currently reside - none of them are Indian, all Europeans. Either way, I wou

by yunohn 5y ago

I've worked with under-skilled developers all over the world. Including NL where I currently reside - none of them are Indian, all Europeans. Either way, I wouldn't call entire swathes of any of them "bottom of the barrel".

Jensson 5y ago
"bottom of the barrel X developers" means the cheapest/worst among X developers. You can say bottom of the barrel European developers, bottom of the barrel American developers, bottom of the barrel Indian developers etc. None of those statements says anything about how the quality of those developers relates to developers outside of that area, it just says you take the bottom for that particular group.
- CrazedGeek 5y ago
  "bottom of the barrel X developers" can also be really easily read as "developers who are X and therefore bottom of the barrel", and whenever I've heard similar phrases in real life, there's always at least some level of insult being cast on whatever X is.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    If he just said "bottom of the barrel developers" people would have assumed he meant "bottom of the barrel developers in USA" and not "bottom of the barrel developers in the World". You can get developers much cheaper in India, which is why you have to add that part as otherwise people would protest the number as unrealistic because not even bottom of the barrel developers are paid that low in the area they were thinking of. The more accurate description would be "bottom of the barrel developers in India", but people would complain about that as well, but maybe not as much.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      - Jensson 5y ago
        I don't see how that is relevant? He just made an analysis of how low their costs could run with that many employees. If their developers aren't stationed in India and paid the lowest going rate for developers there then the discrepancy in costs between these two companies would be even larger. If you know where their developers are stationed then you could add that information and we could estimate a better number for what their running costs are.
Aeolun 5y ago
I may have worked with ‘under skilled’ developers in the Netherlands (but not really), but I’ve never worked with someone that I would describe as bottom-of-the-barrel (if the barrel is world sized).
throwaway413 5y ago
These people are arguing with you over something so basic as common decency and acknowledgement of casual racism. Even here on HN, we are not immune to the density of the ego.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Nobody here said that racism against Indians doesn't exist. But this post isn't an example of that. Right now all you guys are accomplishing is making people feel you are over entitled and not that you are fighting racism. I've seen many people complain about racism against Indians here on HN rightfully, there is no reason to assume Indians are bad or speak as if Indian developers are bad and many people still do those things. But this post isn't one of those racist posts, this post is completely reasonable.
  - throwaway413 5y ago
    And you can think that, just like people can think you are racist for telling Indians what they can and can’t find reasonable about their own stereotypes. “I should hire some bottom of the barrel bootcamp graduates”. Bootcamp graduates in this example is a derogatory name for sub-par devs. We know this because there is a stigma around bootcamp devs in the industry. If you said this, no one is doing the mental gymnastics of “oh, they are separating the great bootcampers from the bottom of the barrel”. No, they assume you look down on bootcamps. Context matters. History matters. Saying “bottom of the barrel Indian devs” in todays software industry, is a racist remark.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > Context matters. Right. And the context in this case is cost to run a company with a given headcount. The cost of 200 bottom of the barrel developers in America and 200 bottom of the barrel developers in India is substantial, which is why you have to include the location in this context. If the context was talking about the efficiency of developers instead of cost you would have a point, but it isn't.
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
Downvoting for continued violation of HN rules around best interpretation, and worst interpretation. This type of low effort fault finding is very unsociable.
- option_greek 5y ago
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - option_greek 5y ago
      I guess that's a literal interpretation but the OP's comparison serves the same purpose. It's sad that he has an edit option where he can clarify/correct to phrase it differently if he chooses to but continues to have it stay the same.
alarak 5y ago
I feel we all have regardless of nationality. And I commend you for standing up to casual racism its disappointing to see this on HN but unfortunately very common here.

by yunohn 5y ago

Jensson 5y ago

"bottom of the barrel X developers" means the cheapest/worst among X developers. You can say bottom of the barrel European developers, bottom of the barrel American developers, bottom of the barrel Indian developers etc. None of those statements says anything about how the quality of those developers relates to developers outside of that area, it just says you take the bottom for that particular group.

CrazedGeek 5y ago
"bottom of the barrel X developers" can also be really easily read as "developers who are X and therefore bottom of the barrel", and whenever I've heard similar phrases in real life, there's always at least some level of insult being cast on whatever X is.
- Jensson 5y ago
  If he just said "bottom of the barrel developers" people would have assumed he meant "bottom of the barrel developers in USA" and not "bottom of the barrel developers in the World". You can get developers much cheaper in India, which is why you have to add that part as otherwise people would protest the number as unrealistic because not even bottom of the barrel developers are paid that low in the area they were thinking of. The more accurate description would be "bottom of the barrel developers in India", but people would complain about that as well, but maybe not as much.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    - Jensson 5y ago
      I don't see how that is relevant? He just made an analysis of how low their costs could run with that many employees. If their developers aren't stationed in India and paid the lowest going rate for developers there then the discrepancy in costs between these two companies would be even larger. If you know where their developers are stationed then you could add that information and we could estimate a better number for what their running costs are.

Aeolun 5y ago

I may have worked with ‘under skilled’ developers in the Netherlands (but not really), but I’ve never worked with someone that I would describe as bottom-of-the-barrel (if the barrel is world sized).

throwaway413 5y ago

These people are arguing with you over something so basic as common decency and acknowledgement of casual racism. Even here on HN, we are not immune to the density of the ego.

Jensson 5y ago
Nobody here said that racism against Indians doesn't exist. But this post isn't an example of that. Right now all you guys are accomplishing is making people feel you are over entitled and not that you are fighting racism. I've seen many people complain about racism against Indians here on HN rightfully, there is no reason to assume Indians are bad or speak as if Indian developers are bad and many people still do those things. But this post isn't one of those racist posts, this post is completely reasonable.
- throwaway413 5y ago
  And you can think that, just like people can think you are racist for telling Indians what they can and can’t find reasonable about their own stereotypes. “I should hire some bottom of the barrel bootcamp graduates”. Bootcamp graduates in this example is a derogatory name for sub-par devs. We know this because there is a stigma around bootcamp devs in the industry. If you said this, no one is doing the mental gymnastics of “oh, they are separating the great bootcampers from the bottom of the barrel”. No, they assume you look down on bootcamps. Context matters. History matters. Saying “bottom of the barrel Indian devs” in todays software industry, is a racist remark.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > Context matters. Right. And the context in this case is cost to run a company with a given headcount. The cost of 200 bottom of the barrel developers in America and 200 bottom of the barrel developers in India is substantial, which is why you have to include the location in this context. If the context was talking about the efficiency of developers instead of cost you would have a point, but it isn't.

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

Downvoting for continued violation of HN rules around best interpretation, and worst interpretation. This type of low effort fault finding is very unsociable.

option_greek 5y ago
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - option_greek 5y ago
    I guess that's a literal interpretation but the OP's comparison serves the same purpose. It's sad that he has an edit option where he can clarify/correct to phrase it differently if he chooses to but continues to have it stay the same.

alarak 5y ago

I feel we all have regardless of nationality. And I commend you for standing up to casual racism its disappointing to see this on HN but unfortunately very common here.