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"(...) and finally request a video of the issue. Gillmore recorded the above video to send to her Tesla service advisor, who claims multiple technicians listen

by cromka 5y ago

"(...) and finally request a video of the issue. Gillmore recorded the above video to send to her Tesla service advisor, who claims multiple technicians listened to the video, only to declare "the brakes sounded normal for a performance Model 3." Watch the video. It's incomprehensible how could anyone who has some experience with cars say that such sound, while breaking, is normal. If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at Tesla had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them, because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes something so crucial to safety?

sixothree 5y ago
I have an Audi Q5 that has brakes that have been squeaking for over 6 months. Dealer does nothing. I hate this car. I hate this car so freaking much.
Syonyk 5y ago
Seriously. That's insanely obviously metal on metal, which shouldn't be a sound you find in the brake system, especially under what's clearly mild low speed braking. The next obvious question: If multiple people think that's "normal for a performance Model 3," how many others are being delivered without brake pads?
- cromka 5y ago
  Yeah, on top of that, as someone pointed out in the comment section on the page linked: "See that green dot on the top of the right picture? That is an assembly inspection mark that someone put there at the factory to indicate the caliper was 100% correct and inspected. Guess that person is bad at their job."
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That's two people bad at their job. Both the person that assembled it and the person that checked it. When you build a car you do it from very precisely controlled sets of inventory, there is no way that you could build a car and have leftover parts and not know which car they belonged to at any build step.
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      > When you build a car you do it from very precisely controlled sets of inventory... You should do it from... Remember, Tesla's shtick for a while was to claim that the legacy automakers were dumb dinosaurs who didn't know code, and therefore Tesla would show them by building sonic velocity lights out dreadnaught factories where there weren't any tolerances at all, and... currently builds cars on a line that's basically indistinguishable from what everyone else uses. In throwing out everything the "dinosaurs" did, it's entirely possible they threw out a range of useful things as well like "The number of parts delivered equals the number of vehicles to be built."
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Fair enough, they might be building them from large chunks of stock. Still, that would be a monumentally stupid move, you could easily forget something even more crucial like that, for instance a circlip on the steering housing. That would be a real surprise, better hope you have paid for self driving if that ever happens ;)
        cromka 5y ago
        > they might be building them from large chunks of stock. That's not how it works, though. Pretty much every single item in a car, except maybe for some screws (which would be identified by a batch number, though), has a unique S/N, and they know which car is built with which part, so that they know which owners to ask to a service center if there's a recall. It's not like they just tak a part from a pile and don't precisely track what they have left. Source: used to develop a MES for an automotive plant that manufactured brakes, airbags and seatbelts.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        If you will take some time to read up on Tesla you'll see that they have their own unique processes. What I describe is apparently how Tesla works, I'm aware that in normal car manufacturing plants that is not how it works.
- aunty_helen 5y ago
  I'm not sure about the performance model 3 and it's brake pads but you can get performance break pads that sound like that. Even ones that sqeak at low speed. Ferodo DS2500 if you want a set for yourself. Drive to the track, track and home again without issues.
  - cromka 5y ago
    I just checked: https://youtu.be/-KNXvqmqNr0?t=30 https://youtu.be/-KNXvqmqNr0?t=30 To be honest, what I hear is a whistling sound, not metal on metal – that kind of sound that instantly sends shivers down your spine.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    That's because they're doing the same things to the rotor at low temperatures that a caliper does - just abrading away rotor material to slow the car. Track pads are great when hot, not so amazing when cold. Yes, I know there are plenty that claim to be able to do everything, but your rotor life will suffer. However, it's not something one should expect from a factory vehicle - and if you've installed higher performance track pads yourself, you should be able to determine if it's normal. Also, they'll sound the same from all four corners - this sound just came from one corner.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    I ran DS2500s for years on my first STI. They would resonate and make a squeal, but it wasn't at all the same as metal-on-metal grinding from a worn out or missing brake pad. Also, I don't recommend DS2500s on a street car. They're intended to be a compromise pad that works on the street and the track both, but the performance is significantly worse when they're not heated up, so the first stop of the day on a cool morning can be surprising. Better to get real street pads and real track pads and swap them. It's super easy on fixed caliper brakes.
    - aunty_helen 5y ago
      I ran the DS2500s for a couple years before shopping around a bit to see what was out there. I settled on custom made pads using a Mintex material which pn escapes me now. I used some pretty decent brands and pads and found the Forodos were the only ones that I couldn't get to fade in the hills. Their friction coefficient starts at 50c so it's definitely not unreasonable like actual race pads that can start in the 125c+ range. I only ever found them a little suprising when they had been hot hot and then the next morning it would take a bit more of a press on the peddal to pull up and the stop lights. I still always had confidence that if I stood on it they would pull up in time. As for running propper race pads at the track, that's fine and I had the same brembos you would've but replacing the rotors I was using wasn't something I wanted to shell out for every few track days. The Forodos never had any fade issues on track and I have a picture with the back wheels almost lifting as I brake from speed cut.
justapassenger 5y ago
> If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at Tesla had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them, because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes something so crucial to safety? Elon is first one to blame for it. Sloppy quality and disregard for safety issues that creates comes all the way down from Elon. This problem is deeply rooted in the organization, that’s only optimizing for growth, at all costs. It’s well known Silicon Valley playbook. But it’s not that great when you apply it to the cars, not some random app.
rootusrootus 5y ago
As a former owner of a Model 3 Performance, I can almost understand the comment -- as long as they didn't really listen to the video. The brakes on the P3D will develop an unholy squeal after a couple weeks of driving around normally using regen for braking. I developed my own routine of goosing it on the last major road before my neighborhood so that I could really use the friction brakes significantly, or I'd eventually find myself waking up the neighbors when backing out of my driveway. I figured it was probably because the P3D gets fixed instead of floating calipers, and fixed caliper brakes typically have some quirks. Noises being the most obvious one.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  I do much the same with our Volt - I have to slow down on a downhill to get in our driveway, and when I've got the car with nobody else in it, and nobody behind me, I build up some speed then really get on the friction brakes hard to keep them free and clean. If you never use the friction brakes, they'll also tend to seize up after a while.
  - crowdwrench 5y ago
    Quick tip, you can do this much easier by shifting the Volt into neutral and then braking. In D and L, the volt actually produces very significant braking via regen via the brake pedal, so much so that you'll have to really brake hard to get any friction braking action. In neutral, regen is turned off and all brake pedal travel is actually physical brakes. You'll be able to clean off your brakes once in a while with just casual easy braking if done in N. Even if you keep your same procedure you use today, you'll get more effect doing it in N.
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      I actually do it in N, because, yes, you're absolutely right - it's wonderfully regen heavy. I cannot express just how nice coming down a mountain grade is with the Volt - put it in L, set cruise control to the recommended speed, and... keep it in the lane. It just sits at at the set speed and regens down without any drama whatsoever. Various states have assorted laws about being in neutral on a public roadway, and while I don't feel it's a safety issue in the Volt, it wasn't something I was going to casually mention either. However, since it was brought up...
jacquesm 5y ago
And now the piston will be damaged as well.
Rapzid 5y ago
Wouldn't the Tesla itself know something was wrong with the braking system based on the performance metrics it gathers?!
- teraflop 5y ago
  Given that Tesla's default strategy when confronted with defects is to deny and deflect, why would they want to pay their software developers to build systems that reliably collect evidence of defects?
  - cromka 5y ago
    > would they want to pay their software developers to build systems that reliably collect evidence of defects? The point was this would be picked up by the regular KPIs collected, not something that would specifically curate to failures. Think: temperature of each wheel, deceleration rate (of each wheel, again), the ESP feedback (the car would inevitably shift when breaking and so ESP would continuously kick-in to compensate), and so on. This is probably very easily detectable by the software without having to specifically design it for it.
rasz 5y ago
Its a blown transaxle! She's just grinding metal!
smsm42 5y ago
I'd assume the SA was trained to never admit a problem no matter what, and was just trying to lie their way out of the predicament, and there was no "multiple technicians". TBH most service centers probably won't trains people for "we forgot to put brakes into your car" scenario - if only because most automakers wouldn't forget to put brakes into your car. But people seem to still love Tesla cars, so who am I to tell them they shouldn't?

by cromka 5y ago

sixothree 5y ago

I have an Audi Q5 that has brakes that have been squeaking for over 6 months. Dealer does nothing. I hate this car. I hate this car so freaking much.

Syonyk 5y ago

Seriously. That's insanely obviously metal on metal, which shouldn't be a sound you find in the brake system, especially under what's clearly mild low speed braking. The next obvious question: If multiple people think that's "normal for a performance Model 3," how many others are being delivered without brake pads?

cromka 5y ago
Yeah, on top of that, as someone pointed out in the comment section on the page linked: "See that green dot on the top of the right picture? That is an assembly inspection mark that someone put there at the factory to indicate the caliper was 100% correct and inspected. Guess that person is bad at their job."
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's two people bad at their job. Both the person that assembled it and the person that checked it. When you build a car you do it from very precisely controlled sets of inventory, there is no way that you could build a car and have leftover parts and not know which car they belonged to at any build step.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    > When you build a car you do it from very precisely controlled sets of inventory... You should do it from... Remember, Tesla's shtick for a while was to claim that the legacy automakers were dumb dinosaurs who didn't know code, and therefore Tesla would show them by building sonic velocity lights out dreadnaught factories where there weren't any tolerances at all, and... currently builds cars on a line that's basically indistinguishable from what everyone else uses. In throwing out everything the "dinosaurs" did, it's entirely possible they threw out a range of useful things as well like "The number of parts delivered equals the number of vehicles to be built."
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Fair enough, they might be building them from large chunks of stock. Still, that would be a monumentally stupid move, you could easily forget something even more crucial like that, for instance a circlip on the steering housing. That would be a real surprise, better hope you have paid for self driving if that ever happens ;)
      - cromka 5y ago
        > they might be building them from large chunks of stock. That's not how it works, though. Pretty much every single item in a car, except maybe for some screws (which would be identified by a batch number, though), has a unique S/N, and they know which car is built with which part, so that they know which owners to ask to a service center if there's a recall. It's not like they just tak a part from a pile and don't precisely track what they have left. Source: used to develop a MES for an automotive plant that manufactured brakes, airbags and seatbelts.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        If you will take some time to read up on Tesla you'll see that they have their own unique processes. What I describe is apparently how Tesla works, I'm aware that in normal car manufacturing plants that is not how it works.
aunty_helen 5y ago
I'm not sure about the performance model 3 and it's brake pads but you can get performance break pads that sound like that. Even ones that sqeak at low speed. Ferodo DS2500 if you want a set for yourself. Drive to the track, track and home again without issues.
- cromka 5y ago
  I just checked: https://youtu.be/-KNXvqmqNr0?t=30 https://youtu.be/-KNXvqmqNr0?t=30 To be honest, what I hear is a whistling sound, not metal on metal – that kind of sound that instantly sends shivers down your spine.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  That's because they're doing the same things to the rotor at low temperatures that a caliper does - just abrading away rotor material to slow the car. Track pads are great when hot, not so amazing when cold. Yes, I know there are plenty that claim to be able to do everything, but your rotor life will suffer. However, it's not something one should expect from a factory vehicle - and if you've installed higher performance track pads yourself, you should be able to determine if it's normal. Also, they'll sound the same from all four corners - this sound just came from one corner.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I ran DS2500s for years on my first STI. They would resonate and make a squeal, but it wasn't at all the same as metal-on-metal grinding from a worn out or missing brake pad. Also, I don't recommend DS2500s on a street car. They're intended to be a compromise pad that works on the street and the track both, but the performance is significantly worse when they're not heated up, so the first stop of the day on a cool morning can be surprising. Better to get real street pads and real track pads and swap them. It's super easy on fixed caliper brakes.
  - aunty_helen 5y ago
    I ran the DS2500s for a couple years before shopping around a bit to see what was out there. I settled on custom made pads using a Mintex material which pn escapes me now. I used some pretty decent brands and pads and found the Forodos were the only ones that I couldn't get to fade in the hills. Their friction coefficient starts at 50c so it's definitely not unreasonable like actual race pads that can start in the 125c+ range. I only ever found them a little suprising when they had been hot hot and then the next morning it would take a bit more of a press on the peddal to pull up and the stop lights. I still always had confidence that if I stood on it they would pull up in time. As for running propper race pads at the track, that's fine and I had the same brembos you would've but replacing the rotors I was using wasn't something I wanted to shell out for every few track days. The Forodos never had any fade issues on track and I have a picture with the back wheels almost lifting as I brake from speed cut.

justapassenger 5y ago

> If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at Tesla had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them, because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes something so crucial to safety? Elon is first one to blame for it. Sloppy quality and disregard for safety issues that creates comes all the way down from Elon. This problem is deeply rooted in the organization, that’s only optimizing for growth, at all costs. It’s well known Silicon Valley playbook. But it’s not that great when you apply it to the cars, not some random app.

rootusrootus 5y ago

As a former owner of a Model 3 Performance, I can almost understand the comment -- as long as they didn't really listen to the video. The brakes on the P3D will develop an unholy squeal after a couple weeks of driving around normally using regen for braking. I developed my own routine of goosing it on the last major road before my neighborhood so that I could really use the friction brakes significantly, or I'd eventually find myself waking up the neighbors when backing out of my driveway. I figured it was probably because the P3D gets fixed instead of floating calipers, and fixed caliper brakes typically have some quirks. Noises being the most obvious one.

Syonyk 5y ago
I do much the same with our Volt - I have to slow down on a downhill to get in our driveway, and when I've got the car with nobody else in it, and nobody behind me, I build up some speed then really get on the friction brakes hard to keep them free and clean. If you never use the friction brakes, they'll also tend to seize up after a while.
- crowdwrench 5y ago
  Quick tip, you can do this much easier by shifting the Volt into neutral and then braking. In D and L, the volt actually produces very significant braking via regen via the brake pedal, so much so that you'll have to really brake hard to get any friction braking action. In neutral, regen is turned off and all brake pedal travel is actually physical brakes. You'll be able to clean off your brakes once in a while with just casual easy braking if done in N. Even if you keep your same procedure you use today, you'll get more effect doing it in N.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    I actually do it in N, because, yes, you're absolutely right - it's wonderfully regen heavy. I cannot express just how nice coming down a mountain grade is with the Volt - put it in L, set cruise control to the recommended speed, and... keep it in the lane. It just sits at at the set speed and regens down without any drama whatsoever. Various states have assorted laws about being in neutral on a public roadway, and while I don't feel it's a safety issue in the Volt, it wasn't something I was going to casually mention either. However, since it was brought up...

jacquesm 5y ago

And now the piston will be damaged as well.

Rapzid 5y ago

Wouldn't the Tesla itself know something was wrong with the braking system based on the performance metrics it gathers?!

teraflop 5y ago
Given that Tesla's default strategy when confronted with defects is to deny and deflect, why would they want to pay their software developers to build systems that reliably collect evidence of defects?
- cromka 5y ago
  > would they want to pay their software developers to build systems that reliably collect evidence of defects? The point was this would be picked up by the regular KPIs collected, not something that would specifically curate to failures. Think: temperature of each wheel, deceleration rate (of each wheel, again), the ESP feedback (the car would inevitably shift when breaking and so ESP would continuously kick-in to compensate), and so on. This is probably very easily detectable by the software without having to specifically design it for it.

rasz 5y ago

Its a blown transaxle! She's just grinding metal!

smsm42 5y ago

I'd assume the SA was trained to never admit a problem no matter what, and was just trying to lie their way out of the predicament, and there was no "multiple technicians". TBH most service centers probably won't trains people for "we forgot to put brakes into your car" scenario - if only because most automakers wouldn't forget to put brakes into your car. But people seem to still love Tesla cars, so who am I to tell them they shouldn't?