23 ms·

Portable replacement for a $60k VO2 Max machine

229 points by paddlesteamer 5y ago

toddm 5y ago
I would happily pay a premium for this device - very nice work!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ghastmaster 5y ago
The title should be changed to reflect the title used in the article. "Accurate VO2 Max for Zwift and Strava" Especially considering the following: > Physiology labs that are normally used for testing VO2 max cost upwards of $60,000 and are certainly not portable. They have sensors that measure the same things only on a much finer level.
- gurjeet 5y ago
  The person who wrote the article must've had a specific audience in mind, so they chose one title. The person who posted the article here must've had HN's audience in mind, so they chose a different title. Titles convey ultra-dense summary of the content, so there can be many titles appropriate for any given article. The purpose of the title is to attract _attention_ of the audience who the title-writer thinks would find it most interesting. The reason someone writes an article, or posts in a forum, is to spread an idea, or a message, and have other like-minded people, or people who may find the info useful, read it. Exception: content written for commercial/monetary gains has no goal other than grabbing eyeballs, to make more money. So, yes, it's okay to edit titles, but only if they're egregiously misleading, or inappropriate, or if there's a better title to convey the summary and attract the attention of folks in the said forum. Context (as to why this request of yours triggered me): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563
  - ghastmaster 5y ago
    The OP here chose to use a title with an astounding monetary figure in it. I was baited. I would not have read the article if it had the original title. Strict adherence to the guidelines would have saved me here. Regarding your post, I am curious if "Google" was removed by yourself(and later changed your mind) or the moderators?
    - picture 5y ago
      After reading through some of the context[1], I'm in favor of being consistent with de-clickbaiting titles. This title should be changed to "Accurate VO2 Max for Zwift and Strava" as it is a much better summary of the article (the article does mention beating $60k machinery, but does not seem to suggest being a portable replacement for that specific machinery like the title) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563 To summarize the contextual thread, the title of a post was de-clickbaited against the OP's intentions. In my opinion, for the better. Never Use Google to Sign-In Never Use Third Party Auth to Sign In Don't use third party auth to sign in
- C19is20 5y ago
  Check out intervals.icu
savant_penguin 5y ago
Sometimes I wonder if the way to bypass the insane regulations around medical devices is to just publish them online for anyone to build themselves. Sure I won't have the minutes detail of million dollar medical equipment, but maybe I don't need all that precision, or maybe that's better than having no access at all to the measurements at all
- csdvrx 5y ago
  We need a currently "missing" network effect that cheap 3d printer supporting everything from more flexible plastics to metal will eventually provide.
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Wake me up when we can 3D print pills and I can craft the perfect Tylenol or 5 hour energy from some React app. Now that'll be a medical revolution!
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      Once this is done, printing chemicals might be achievable too (thanks to the network effect of lots of people already having 3d printer to produce the required hardware), but maybe not immediately :)
    - nradov 5y ago
      You don't need a 3D printer. Just order bulk acetaminophen and caffeine powder, then put as much as you want into capsules. (Don't poison yourself.)
- NationalPark 5y ago
  What are the devices you have in mind? It doesn't seem like the intersection between "people with biomedical engineering skills" and "people who need treatment limited by the expense of the equipment" would be that large. I suppose I can imagine a sort of shadow economy of cheap medical treatment on home-built equipment, but surely the providers would be uninsurable and sued into oblivion at the first mistake.
hourislate 5y ago
First comment on page. >My wife is an Ironman as well (Muskoka, Tremblant and Penticton). . She's been using Zwift since last year. Great way to train btw and great idea but. My concern would be a collapsed lung(s) if this wasn't calibrated correctly. To each their own, but stressing your lungs and diaphragm this much isn't a great idea. In a lab they can at least make sure you don't hurt yourself.
- 762236 5y ago
  How would you get a collapsed lung from using this? And how does its calibration influence whether you get a collapsed lung? This device doesn't interfere with inspiration, and a large breath of air inflates your alveoli.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Pulling a vacuum against your lung can break adhesion when done from the lung cavity.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - idealmedtech 5y ago
    Questions like this are why people should not be building medical devices at home. Your average athlete interested in this may lack the necessary medical knowledge to understand that a collapsed lung is a possibility when using this device, and cause themselves serious bodily harm.
- voisin 5y ago
  How could it cause one’s lungs to collapse? Isn’t the idea of measuring VO2 max that a tight seal is formed and all input and output is measured for O2 and CO2? It isn’t pressurizing or depressurizing.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
csours 5y ago
Neat! I've been thinking about this lately. If you had accurate CO2 and O2 measurements, you could calculate how many milligrams of fat you are burning during exercise.
- nradov 5y ago
  This device doesn't appear to contain a CO2 sensor.
  - maxwell86 5y ago
    It contains a laser CO2 sensor.
    - carbocation 5y ago
      No, it does not: > Several compromises were made in the design of the unit: no CO2 sensor
aghilmort 5y ago
very cool -- am an ultradistance athlete -- definitely could be a Kickstarter!
trentnix 5y ago
This is really great. For those who aren't familiar with what these machines can do, the calculation of an athlete's Vo2 max really isn't all that useful. However, a breakdown of the fat and carbohydrate calories burned at various efforts can be incredibly useful for helping an athlete learn how to fuel correctly for performance over distance. I'm not a physiologist or physician (and I'm sure what I'm about to say may be max cringe to the bonafide experts that are around), but my basic understanding is that when expending effort, you burn calories from fat stores and from glycogen stores. Glycogen stores store around 2000 calories, and expending one's glycogen stores results in hitting "the wall" - your body simply doesn't have any fuel to proceed. Your fat stores, on the other hand, provide access to tens of thousands of calories. People are generally fat-inefficient - any effort immediately biases towards consumption of glycogen. And when you're out, that's it. Your day is done. So knowing the rate you're burning carbohydrate calories can inform an athlete how often and how much to fuel. Some people are born "fat-efficient", meaning they can access their fat stores easier. Fat efficiency can also be improved through low-intensity endurance training with improved diet. So athletes will periodically do a VO2 test to stay in-tune with how their body is using the fuel sources available to it. Many years ago I did an Ironman (Couer d'Alene) and a Vo2 test indicated I needed to aggressively consume calories (at the effort I was planning to ride) on the bike. After all, you have to get off the bike nutritionally prepared and hydrated to run a marathon. So that's what I did, and I had a good day considering I really wasn't all that fit. Endurance and ultradistance events aren't really tests of toughness. They are science experiments. It's all about figuring out how to take one's fitness and stretch it over the distance of the event. One additional note - there are machines much less expensive than 60k available, but they are still pretty expensive (in the thousands).
- dpeck 5y ago
  I appreciate the modesty, but talking about completing an Ironman and having the phrase “really wasn't all that fit” anywhere near it is comical. Getting through any one of the stages of an Ironman (or heck even a half of each stage) represents a level of fitness most adults do not have and will never attain.
  - 5y ago
jonah 5y ago
One refinement would be to split the device in to two parts = the mask/tube/sensors and the electronics and battery. Then, the a large portion of the weight could be moved to the back of the headband or a fanny pack reducing the load/torque/etc. on the face. A lot of headlamps do this for example. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/SPECIALIZED-headlamps/DUO-S https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/SPECIALIZED-headlamps/DUO-...
virtuallynathan 5y ago
The actual machines aren’t $60k anymore - I have a portable one, it was $5500. This is a very cool project to bring that down even more.
rdxm 5y ago
ck2 5y ago
I thought the DIY air-quality monitor earlier today was neat but this blows me away. Some serious next-level hardware hackers this generation. I get worried everyone is turning into dumb iphone+app users but this advanced creation stuff restores faith.
- emilburzo 5y ago
  Link to the DIY air-quality monitor?
  - ck2 5y ago
    sorry I missed this question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29946486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29946486 uses a $20 BME680 on a $10 PI, I am really tempted to try it since the standalone sensor for my weather station is like $150 https://www.adafruit.com/product/3660 https://www.adafruit.com/product/3660
blensor 5y ago
It's like HN has a microphone in my home. I've been looking into adding VO2 max measurement capabilities to our VR fitness game and been looking for DIY solutions and then this :) That looks actually useful
SergeAx 5y ago
Wow, great job! That's the real hacker spirit) > I have found that with the calculations for energy expended from the Oxygen utilization algorithm is slightly higher than that calculated by the work/watt output of the Zwift App algorithm. I beleive this is because Zwift doesn't count a basal metabolic rate. As far as I understand this is a default behavior for all calorie tables and trackers, one must calculate and add that constant manually. This device can actually measure that value!
carbocation 5y ago
This is a cool project. The lack of CO2 sensing is a significant limitation. This wouldn’t replace a CPET because of that limitation. I know that’s not what it claims to replace (though the price tag seems to suggest so). But that could be a modification that would have significant value. It would allow you to triangulate your anaerobic threshold, for example.

229 points by paddlesteamer 5y ago

toddm 5y ago

I would happily pay a premium for this device - very nice work!

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ghastmaster 5y ago

The title should be changed to reflect the title used in the article. "Accurate VO2 Max for Zwift and Strava" Especially considering the following: > Physiology labs that are normally used for testing VO2 max cost upwards of $60,000 and are certainly not portable. They have sensors that measure the same things only on a much finer level.

gurjeet 5y ago
The person who wrote the article must've had a specific audience in mind, so they chose one title. The person who posted the article here must've had HN's audience in mind, so they chose a different title. Titles convey ultra-dense summary of the content, so there can be many titles appropriate for any given article. The purpose of the title is to attract _attention_ of the audience who the title-writer thinks would find it most interesting. The reason someone writes an article, or posts in a forum, is to spread an idea, or a message, and have other like-minded people, or people who may find the info useful, read it. Exception: content written for commercial/monetary gains has no goal other than grabbing eyeballs, to make more money. So, yes, it's okay to edit titles, but only if they're egregiously misleading, or inappropriate, or if there's a better title to convey the summary and attract the attention of folks in the said forum. Context (as to why this request of yours triggered me): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563
- ghastmaster 5y ago
  The OP here chose to use a title with an astounding monetary figure in it. I was baited. I would not have read the article if it had the original title. Strict adherence to the guidelines would have saved me here. Regarding your post, I am curious if "Google" was removed by yourself(and later changed your mind) or the moderators?
  - picture 5y ago
    After reading through some of the context[1], I'm in favor of being consistent with de-clickbaiting titles. This title should be changed to "Accurate VO2 Max for Zwift and Strava" as it is a much better summary of the article (the article does mention beating $60k machinery, but does not seem to suggest being a portable replacement for that specific machinery like the title) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25093563 To summarize the contextual thread, the title of a post was de-clickbaited against the OP's intentions. In my opinion, for the better. Never Use Google to Sign-In Never Use Third Party Auth to Sign In Don't use third party auth to sign in
C19is20 5y ago
Check out intervals.icu

savant_penguin 5y ago

Sometimes I wonder if the way to bypass the insane regulations around medical devices is to just publish them online for anyone to build themselves. Sure I won't have the minutes detail of million dollar medical equipment, but maybe I don't need all that precision, or maybe that's better than having no access at all to the measurements at all

csdvrx 5y ago
We need a currently "missing" network effect that cheap 3d printer supporting everything from more flexible plastics to metal will eventually provide.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Wake me up when we can 3D print pills and I can craft the perfect Tylenol or 5 hour energy from some React app. Now that'll be a medical revolution!
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    Once this is done, printing chemicals might be achievable too (thanks to the network effect of lots of people already having 3d printer to produce the required hardware), but maybe not immediately :)
  - nradov 5y ago
    You don't need a 3D printer. Just order bulk acetaminophen and caffeine powder, then put as much as you want into capsules. (Don't poison yourself.)
NationalPark 5y ago
What are the devices you have in mind? It doesn't seem like the intersection between "people with biomedical engineering skills" and "people who need treatment limited by the expense of the equipment" would be that large. I suppose I can imagine a sort of shadow economy of cheap medical treatment on home-built equipment, but surely the providers would be uninsurable and sued into oblivion at the first mistake.

hourislate 5y ago

First comment on page. >My wife is an Ironman as well (Muskoka, Tremblant and Penticton). . She's been using Zwift since last year. Great way to train btw and great idea but. My concern would be a collapsed lung(s) if this wasn't calibrated correctly. To each their own, but stressing your lungs and diaphragm this much isn't a great idea. In a lab they can at least make sure you don't hurt yourself.

762236 5y ago
How would you get a collapsed lung from using this? And how does its calibration influence whether you get a collapsed lung? This device doesn't interfere with inspiration, and a large breath of air inflates your alveoli.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Pulling a vacuum against your lung can break adhesion when done from the lung cavity.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- idealmedtech 5y ago
  Questions like this are why people should not be building medical devices at home. Your average athlete interested in this may lack the necessary medical knowledge to understand that a collapsed lung is a possibility when using this device, and cause themselves serious bodily harm.
voisin 5y ago
How could it cause one’s lungs to collapse? Isn’t the idea of measuring VO2 max that a tight seal is formed and all input and output is measured for O2 and CO2? It isn’t pressurizing or depressurizing.
- jacquesm 5y ago

csours 5y ago

Neat! I've been thinking about this lately. If you had accurate CO2 and O2 measurements, you could calculate how many milligrams of fat you are burning during exercise.

nradov 5y ago
This device doesn't appear to contain a CO2 sensor.
- maxwell86 5y ago
  It contains a laser CO2 sensor.
  - carbocation 5y ago
    No, it does not: > Several compromises were made in the design of the unit: no CO2 sensor

aghilmort 5y ago

very cool -- am an ultradistance athlete -- definitely could be a Kickstarter!

trentnix 5y ago

This is really great. For those who aren't familiar with what these machines can do, the calculation of an athlete's Vo2 max really isn't all that useful. However, a breakdown of the fat and carbohydrate calories burned at various efforts can be incredibly useful for helping an athlete learn how to fuel correctly for performance over distance. I'm not a physiologist or physician (and I'm sure what I'm about to say may be max cringe to the bonafide experts that are around), but my basic understanding is that when expending effort, you burn calories from fat stores and from glycogen stores. Glycogen stores store around 2000 calories, and expending one's glycogen stores results in hitting "the wall" - your body simply doesn't have any fuel to proceed. Your fat stores, on the other hand, provide access to tens of thousands of calories. People are generally fat-inefficient - any effort immediately biases towards consumption of glycogen. And when you're out, that's it. Your day is done. So knowing the rate you're burning carbohydrate calories can inform an athlete how often and how much to fuel. Some people are born "fat-efficient", meaning they can access their fat stores easier. Fat efficiency can also be improved through low-intensity endurance training with improved diet. So athletes will periodically do a VO2 test to stay in-tune with how their body is using the fuel sources available to it. Many years ago I did an Ironman (Couer d'Alene) and a Vo2 test indicated I needed to aggressively consume calories (at the effort I was planning to ride) on the bike. After all, you have to get off the bike nutritionally prepared and hydrated to run a marathon. So that's what I did, and I had a good day considering I really wasn't all that fit. Endurance and ultradistance events aren't really tests of toughness. They are science experiments. It's all about figuring out how to take one's fitness and stretch it over the distance of the event. One additional note - there are machines much less expensive than 60k available, but they are still pretty expensive (in the thousands).

dpeck 5y ago
I appreciate the modesty, but talking about completing an Ironman and having the phrase “really wasn't all that fit” anywhere near it is comical. Getting through any one of the stages of an Ironman (or heck even a half of each stage) represents a level of fitness most adults do not have and will never attain.
- 5y ago

jonah 5y ago

One refinement would be to split the device in to two parts = the mask/tube/sensors and the electronics and battery. Then, the a large portion of the weight could be moved to the back of the headband or a fanny pack reducing the load/torque/etc. on the face. A lot of headlamps do this for example. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/SPECIALIZED-headlamps/DUO-S https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/SPECIALIZED-headlamps/DUO-...

virtuallynathan 5y ago

The actual machines aren’t $60k anymore - I have a portable one, it was $5500. This is a very cool project to bring that down even more.

rdxm 5y ago

ck2 5y ago

I thought the DIY air-quality monitor earlier today was neat but this blows me away. Some serious next-level hardware hackers this generation. I get worried everyone is turning into dumb iphone+app users but this advanced creation stuff restores faith.

emilburzo 5y ago
Link to the DIY air-quality monitor?
- ck2 5y ago
  sorry I missed this question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29946486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29946486 uses a $20 BME680 on a $10 PI, I am really tempted to try it since the standalone sensor for my weather station is like $150 https://www.adafruit.com/product/3660 https://www.adafruit.com/product/3660

blensor 5y ago

It's like HN has a microphone in my home. I've been looking into adding VO2 max measurement capabilities to our VR fitness game and been looking for DIY solutions and then this :) That looks actually useful

SergeAx 5y ago

Wow, great job! That's the real hacker spirit) > I have found that with the calculations for energy expended from the Oxygen utilization algorithm is slightly higher than that calculated by the work/watt output of the Zwift App algorithm. I beleive this is because Zwift doesn't count a basal metabolic rate. As far as I understand this is a default behavior for all calorie tables and trackers, one must calculate and add that constant manually. This device can actually measure that value!

carbocation 5y ago

This is a cool project. The lack of CO2 sensing is a significant limitation. This wouldn’t replace a CPET because of that limitation. I know that’s not what it claims to replace (though the price tag seems to suggest so). But that could be a modification that would have significant value. It would allow you to triangulate your anaerobic threshold, for example.