5 ms·

He gives a summary of 20th century politics that doesn't include fascism, and makes the Cold War sound like it was a battle between "small government" and "work

by rvense 5y ago

He gives a summary of 20th century politics that doesn't include fascism, and makes the Cold War sound like it was a battle between "small government" and "worker's rights". He says outright that nationalism on the political right is a "redefinition". This is so bizarre I can only assume I'm reading it wrong.

guerrilla 5y ago
He also ignores all the material demands of the groups involved in identity politics, as if they don't intersect (A LOT!) This is inane.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  What are the material demands of those groups? There seems to be a general demand for special treatment and privileged legal status based on membership in their identity group, but symbolic issues seem very much at the center of identity politics.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    When a group is disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism, they tend to have disproportionately worse economic outcomes (sometimes extremely so.) This is almost always recognized by that group of people and a strong motivating factor from overcoming their systemic disadvantage. > demand for special treatment and privileged legal status based on membership in their identity group Usually they're just asking for equal treatment, but if you mean things like affirmative action then this is obviously just society paying off its debt to the group for previous exclusion or jump-starting things to get closer to an equal society.[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Origins
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      > When a group is disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism, they tend to have disproportionately worse economic outcomes Well, it depends. A lot of real-world identity politics amounts to malicious, overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and economic outcomes than the relevant majority group. This is the story of, e.g. Asians in the U.S. but also of recent African immigrants from subcultures like the Igbo, Ashanti and Yoruba with a focus on education and cultural development, who get marginalized in Black communities throughout the West for supposedly "acting white" or, more diplomatically stated, "pursuing respectability politics".
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        > overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and economic outcomes than the relevant majority group. Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism." Being a minority does not automatically make one marginalized and one does not need to be a minority to be marginalized.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        > Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society" Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means. My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics, especially when minorities differ in their overall attitudes towards education or economic development.
        guerrilla 5y ago
        > Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means Then we can't agree on that premise. I don't think they are even remotely marginalized to the same extent. If they were, they would suffer the same consequences. To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on. > My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics Sure, it can, Ethiopia is repeatedly a great example of that. Asians in America aren't. None of those that Fukuyama listed are either.
beepbooptheory 5y ago
I am not clear on your complaints here, maybe you are reading it wrong? To pick up on one thing: do you feel that the political right has, rather, sustained a consistent nationalistic bent for the past century? You dont feel like it has changed recently, and rather, perhaps, believing it has changed is misguided?
- rvense 5y ago
  Nationalism is a defining characteristic of political conservatism.
  - N1H1L 5y ago
    It is in fact the first feature - conservatism is almost always focused on preventing changes to a current identity from multiculturalism and cosmopolitan forces
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
I agree; he ignores all the national liberation movements, which were typically nationalistic and linked to an ethnic identity (even when nominally "Communist"). More charitably he's trying to talk about the transition from the Old Left to the New Left.

by rvense 5y ago

guerrilla 5y ago

He also ignores all the material demands of the groups involved in identity politics, as if they don't intersect (A LOT!) This is inane.

fallingknife 5y ago
What are the material demands of those groups? There seems to be a general demand for special treatment and privileged legal status based on membership in their identity group, but symbolic issues seem very much at the center of identity politics.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  When a group is disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism, they tend to have disproportionately worse economic outcomes (sometimes extremely so.) This is almost always recognized by that group of people and a strong motivating factor from overcoming their systemic disadvantage. > demand for special treatment and privileged legal status based on membership in their identity group Usually they're just asking for equal treatment, but if you mean things like affirmative action then this is obviously just society paying off its debt to the group for previous exclusion or jump-starting things to get closer to an equal society.[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Origins
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > When a group is disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism, they tend to have disproportionately worse economic outcomes Well, it depends. A lot of real-world identity politics amounts to malicious, overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and economic outcomes than the relevant majority group. This is the story of, e.g. Asians in the U.S. but also of recent African immigrants from subcultures like the Igbo, Ashanti and Yoruba with a focus on education and cultural development, who get marginalized in Black communities throughout the West for supposedly "acting white" or, more diplomatically stated, "pursuing respectability politics".
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      > overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and economic outcomes than the relevant majority group. Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism." Being a minority does not automatically make one marginalized and one does not need to be a minority to be marginalized.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        > Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society" Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means. My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics, especially when minorities differ in their overall attitudes towards education or economic development.
        guerrilla 5y ago
        > Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means Then we can't agree on that premise. I don't think they are even remotely marginalized to the same extent. If they were, they would suffer the same consequences. To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on. > My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics Sure, it can, Ethiopia is repeatedly a great example of that. Asians in America aren't. None of those that Fukuyama listed are either.

beepbooptheory 5y ago

I am not clear on your complaints here, maybe you are reading it wrong? To pick up on one thing: do you feel that the political right has, rather, sustained a consistent nationalistic bent for the past century? You dont feel like it has changed recently, and rather, perhaps, believing it has changed is misguided?

rvense 5y ago
Nationalism is a defining characteristic of political conservatism.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  It is in fact the first feature - conservatism is almost always focused on preventing changes to a current identity from multiculturalism and cosmopolitan forces

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

I agree; he ignores all the national liberation movements, which were typically nationalistic and linked to an ethnic identity (even when nominally "Communist"). More charitably he's trying to talk about the transition from the Old Left to the New Left.