4 ms·

If they're feral there's not a lot we can do. We can capture them and fix them so they don't reproduce but they can't be homed and killing them would be evil.

If they're feral there's not a lot we can do. We can capture them and fix them so they don't reproduce but they can't be homed and killing them would be evil. Outdoor cats are a bit more complex but its also cruel to lock up an animal all day in a home. They need stimulation and exercise. The real fix is to ban pet ownership. No one likes to talk about that because so many of us need pets for emotional stability and companionship, but pretty much all pet ownership is unethical. Birds getting killed really is the tip of the iceberg, as in, its the most visible part of this problem, but so much more lies below it, supporting it and creating this situation. I love animals and don't eat them, nor do I keep them as pets. I fully believe this is the right way to go in life. People attacking this type of pet owner vs that type of pet owner are missing the forest for the trees here, and I suspect getting a nice ego boost over being the "better" animal jailer. Logically, emotionally, and ethically, pet ownership simply cannot be made humane, good for pets, or good for wildlife. The only fix is to get rid of pet culture entirely.

poulsbohemian 5y ago
> pretty much all pet ownership is unethical Convince me, because nothing you've written above has made a case. Tell me how my cats receiving daily meds for their health issues, receiving better medical care than I get, having their choice of multiple varieties of foods and treats, having perches at all heights, having a fucking three-tier custom catio is somehow abusing them and unethical.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  I strongly recommend Douglas Adam’s except about the cow that wants to be eaten. Strongly.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-cow-that-wants-to-be.html https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-co... For anyone interested. It's not really that compelling. It's a funny scenario.
    - nostrebored 5y ago
      if the cow that wants to be eaten doesn’t make you feel different about conditioning and transactions I question how much you actually thought about it.
      - betwixthewires 5y ago
        Well enlighten me then.
- drzaiusapelord 5y ago
  How could I possibly convince you of the empathy for animals you've never developed? This is like asking someone to prove a theorem to someone who has never studied math or science. I expressed my opinion. I fully accept I cannot ever change an adult mind, especially in a venue like this and over such a complicated subject and one that the status quo prefers not discuss (animal rights, animal welfare, meat industry, dairy industry, pet trade, pet mental illness, pet inbreeding, pet breeding in general, and general animal suffering by humans) because so much of near every society is built on killing, eating, exploiting, and imprisoning animals for our pleasure. Its not the most pressing issue, but when I see dog owners fighting over cat owner over dead birds or whatever, I do like to point out that there's a major forest for the trees problem here. And yes its futile on some level. A bit like being against cigarettes 60 years ago, or being again racism during segregation, or being against slavery at the founding of this country, etc. Collectively, we're not here yet for this, but I hope someday we are. I see so much hopeful things in regards to animal welfare in gen-z and younger millenials that I really do think change is on the horizon, maybe in 20-30 years we'll see pet ownership like we'll see the meat industry, or the crocodile purse industry, etc. I remember PETA being mocked for decades for pointing out how "all american" and "family friendly" and "humane" places like Oceanworld/Seaworld/whatever with their captive whales were, but Joe Beer Drinker "hates bleeding heart liberals" Netflix Watcher saw Blackfish almost 10 years ago and more importantly, so did his children, and the narrative slowly changed over the years as those children became college students, and workers, and leaders, and took the voice from the older generation and said "no, this is inhumane." Its not futile to point this out. Its not rude to say that people like you are on the wrong side of history. Its okay to get downvoted the same way HN 1955 would downvote me for saying cigarettes were unhealthy and cause diseases and kill people. We're not there yet, especially in a conservative leaning forum like this one. In other words, hello from the future, we won't look kindly on the status quo you fought so hard to preserve.
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betwixthewires 5y ago
> killing them would be evil. Would it? Killing a pest? We kill rats in cities, cockroaches, termites, gophers, moles, voles... > The real fix is to ban pet ownership. I'm sorry but you're out of your god damn mind. To choose not to own one, sure. But to outlaw a practice that in part defines humanity? Because you don't like it? Pet ownership can 100% be done humanely, good for animals and good for wildlife. I know because I've done it in my own life.

poulsbohemian 5y ago

> pretty much all pet ownership is unethical Convince me, because nothing you've written above has made a case. Tell me how my cats receiving daily meds for their health issues, receiving better medical care than I get, having their choice of multiple varieties of foods and treats, having perches at all heights, having a fucking three-tier custom catio is somehow abusing them and unethical.

nostrebored 5y ago
I strongly recommend Douglas Adam’s except about the cow that wants to be eaten. Strongly.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-cow-that-wants-to-be.html https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-co... For anyone interested. It's not really that compelling. It's a funny scenario.
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    if the cow that wants to be eaten doesn’t make you feel different about conditioning and transactions I question how much you actually thought about it.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      Well enlighten me then.
drzaiusapelord 5y ago
How could I possibly convince you of the empathy for animals you've never developed? This is like asking someone to prove a theorem to someone who has never studied math or science. I expressed my opinion. I fully accept I cannot ever change an adult mind, especially in a venue like this and over such a complicated subject and one that the status quo prefers not discuss (animal rights, animal welfare, meat industry, dairy industry, pet trade, pet mental illness, pet inbreeding, pet breeding in general, and general animal suffering by humans) because so much of near every society is built on killing, eating, exploiting, and imprisoning animals for our pleasure. Its not the most pressing issue, but when I see dog owners fighting over cat owner over dead birds or whatever, I do like to point out that there's a major forest for the trees problem here. And yes its futile on some level. A bit like being against cigarettes 60 years ago, or being again racism during segregation, or being against slavery at the founding of this country, etc. Collectively, we're not here yet for this, but I hope someday we are. I see so much hopeful things in regards to animal welfare in gen-z and younger millenials that I really do think change is on the horizon, maybe in 20-30 years we'll see pet ownership like we'll see the meat industry, or the crocodile purse industry, etc. I remember PETA being mocked for decades for pointing out how "all american" and "family friendly" and "humane" places like Oceanworld/Seaworld/whatever with their captive whales were, but Joe Beer Drinker "hates bleeding heart liberals" Netflix Watcher saw Blackfish almost 10 years ago and more importantly, so did his children, and the narrative slowly changed over the years as those children became college students, and workers, and leaders, and took the voice from the older generation and said "no, this is inhumane." Its not futile to point this out. Its not rude to say that people like you are on the wrong side of history. Its okay to get downvoted the same way HN 1955 would downvote me for saying cigarettes were unhealthy and cause diseases and kill people. We're not there yet, especially in a conservative leaning forum like this one. In other words, hello from the future, we won't look kindly on the status quo you fought so hard to preserve.
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betwixthewires 5y ago

> killing them would be evil. Would it? Killing a pest? We kill rats in cities, cockroaches, termites, gophers, moles, voles... > The real fix is to ban pet ownership. I'm sorry but you're out of your god damn mind. To choose not to own one, sure. But to outlaw a practice that in part defines humanity? Because you don't like it? Pet ownership can 100% be done humanely, good for animals and good for wildlife. I know because I've done it in my own life.