6 ms·

> "Generally, academic software is stapled together on a tight deadline; an expert user has to coerce it into running; and it's not pretty code. Academic code i

by LandR 5y ago

> "Generally, academic software is stapled together on a tight deadline; an expert user has to coerce it into running; and it's not pretty code. Academic code is about 'proof of concept.'" What do you know, it turns out the professional software developers I work with are actually scientists and academics!!

paulluuk 5y ago
They don't call it "Computer Science" for nothing ;)
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  notoriously Philip Wadler says that computer science has two problems: computer and science. It's not about computers and "You don't put science on your name if you're a real science" He prefers the name informatics. source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU https://youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    An economist friend of mine told me that once, so this isn't just a CS quip.
  - dmlorenzetti 5y ago
    You don't put science on your name if you're a real science Having flashbacks to when a close friend was getting an MS in Political Science, and spent the first semester in a class devoted to whether or not political science is a science.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
      Well? Don't keep us hanging.
  - wisemang 5y ago
    Kinda like countries that feel the need to put “democratic” in their name.
    - viraptor 5y ago
      Also applies to newspapers which include some version of "truth" in the title. (Russian propaganda "Pravda", Polish tabloid "Fakt", etc.)
    - phaedrix 5y ago
      Or "People"...
      - behnamoh 5y ago
        Or "Republic"...
        Barfieldmv 5y ago
        Or "Of China"....
  - Frost1x 5y ago
    "Information science" is basically long form of "informatics" so that breaks it I'd say. Also, "information" tends to imply a focus on state and places computational aspects (operations performed on information) as second hand. I've yet to find a classification I really like but this is an interesting take. I still tend to like CIS (Computing and Information Sciences). The problem with CS is it focuses on computation and puts state as second class. The problem with IS is it focuses on state and puts computing as second class. To me, both are equally important.
    - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
      TBF informatics is "the study of computational systems" I have studied informatics, but don't call myself an informatic, because I am not doing any research. I call myself a programmer, because I am not doing engineering either.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Informática is a common term in Spanish, as you probably know.
  - anamax 5y ago
    Materials Science is about as sciency as you can get.
  - lr1970 5y ago
    > It's not about computers and "You don't put science on your name if you're a real science" "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." - Edsger W. Dijkstra [0], [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Maybe a little OT, but, I'd rather it be called "computing science." Computers are just the tool. I believe it was Dijkstra who famously objected to it being called "computer science," because they don't call astronomy "telescope science," or something to that effect.
  - hezag 5y ago
    In Portuguese it's called "Ciência da Computação" (computing science or science of computation).
  - TremendousJudge 5y ago
    I never thought about this, but it's right. However, to get more nitpicky, most of the uses of "Comput[er|ing] Science" should be replaced with "Computer Engineering" anyway. If you are building something for a company, you are doing engineering, not science research
    - bhelkey 5y ago
      All my job titles have been of the form Software Engineer plus a modifier. I believe they are referring to what the degree currently known as Computer Science should be called.
      - actually_a_dog 5y ago
        Yes. Specifically, it's referring to what the academic discipline ought to be called. Incidentally, I don't think I know any SWEs who actually majored in software engineering. I know one who didn't even bother to graduate high school and therefore has no academic credential whatsoever, a couple of music majors, a few math majors, and a lot of "computer science" majors, but I can't think of anyone who actually got a "software engineering" bachelor's degree. Hell, I even know one guy with a JD. I think I know 1 or 2 who have master's degrees in "software engineering," but that's it.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      I agree. I can't find it right now, but there was an article on HN within the past few days talking about how software engineering is often more like writing and editing a book than engineering. That makes perfect sense to me. Code should be meant primarily to communicate with people, and only incidentally to give instructions to computers. It seems to be lost to the sands of time who said this first, but it is certainly true that code is read by humans many more times than it is written. Therefore, ceteris paribus, we should optimize for readability. Readable code is often simple code, as well. This also has practical benefits. Kernighan's law[0] states: > Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. Dijkstra says it this way: > The competent programmer is fully aware of the strictly limited size of his own skull; therefore he approaches the programming task in full humility, and among other things he avoids clever tricks like the plague.[1] Knuth has a well-documented preference for "re-editable" code over reusable code. Being "re-editable" implies that the code must be readable and understandable (i.e. communicate its intention well to any future editors), if not simple. I know that I have sometimes had difficulty debugging overly clever code. I am not inclined to disagree with the giants on this one. --- [0]: https://www.defprogramming.com/q/188353f216dd/ https://www.defprogramming.com/q/188353f216dd/ [1]: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/E...

by LandR 5y ago

paulluuk 5y ago

They don't call it "Computer Science" for nothing ;)

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
notoriously Philip Wadler says that computer science has two problems: computer and science. It's not about computers and "You don't put science on your name if you're a real science" He prefers the name informatics. source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU https://youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  An economist friend of mine told me that once, so this isn't just a CS quip.
- dmlorenzetti 5y ago
  You don't put science on your name if you're a real science Having flashbacks to when a close friend was getting an MS in Political Science, and spent the first semester in a class devoted to whether or not political science is a science.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Well? Don't keep us hanging.
- wisemang 5y ago
  Kinda like countries that feel the need to put “democratic” in their name.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    Also applies to newspapers which include some version of "truth" in the title. (Russian propaganda "Pravda", Polish tabloid "Fakt", etc.)
  - phaedrix 5y ago
    Or "People"...
    - behnamoh 5y ago
      Or "Republic"...
      - Barfieldmv 5y ago
        Or "Of China"....
- Frost1x 5y ago
  "Information science" is basically long form of "informatics" so that breaks it I'd say. Also, "information" tends to imply a focus on state and places computational aspects (operations performed on information) as second hand. I've yet to find a classification I really like but this is an interesting take. I still tend to like CIS (Computing and Information Sciences). The problem with CS is it focuses on computation and puts state as second class. The problem with IS is it focuses on state and puts computing as second class. To me, both are equally important.
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    TBF informatics is "the study of computational systems" I have studied informatics, but don't call myself an informatic, because I am not doing any research. I call myself a programmer, because I am not doing engineering either.
- kragen 5y ago
  Informática is a common term in Spanish, as you probably know.
- anamax 5y ago
  Materials Science is about as sciency as you can get.
- lr1970 5y ago
  > It's not about computers and "You don't put science on your name if you're a real science" "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." - Edsger W. Dijkstra [0], [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science
actually_a_dog 5y ago
Maybe a little OT, but, I'd rather it be called "computing science." Computers are just the tool. I believe it was Dijkstra who famously objected to it being called "computer science," because they don't call astronomy "telescope science," or something to that effect.
- hezag 5y ago
  In Portuguese it's called "Ciência da Computação" (computing science or science of computation).
- TremendousJudge 5y ago
  I never thought about this, but it's right. However, to get more nitpicky, most of the uses of "Comput[er|ing] Science" should be replaced with "Computer Engineering" anyway. If you are building something for a company, you are doing engineering, not science research
  - bhelkey 5y ago
    All my job titles have been of the form Software Engineer plus a modifier. I believe they are referring to what the degree currently known as Computer Science should be called.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Yes. Specifically, it's referring to what the academic discipline ought to be called. Incidentally, I don't think I know any SWEs who actually majored in software engineering. I know one who didn't even bother to graduate high school and therefore has no academic credential whatsoever, a couple of music majors, a few math majors, and a lot of "computer science" majors, but I can't think of anyone who actually got a "software engineering" bachelor's degree. Hell, I even know one guy with a JD. I think I know 1 or 2 who have master's degrees in "software engineering," but that's it.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    I agree. I can't find it right now, but there was an article on HN within the past few days talking about how software engineering is often more like writing and editing a book than engineering. That makes perfect sense to me. Code should be meant primarily to communicate with people, and only incidentally to give instructions to computers. It seems to be lost to the sands of time who said this first, but it is certainly true that code is read by humans many more times than it is written. Therefore, ceteris paribus, we should optimize for readability. Readable code is often simple code, as well. This also has practical benefits. Kernighan's law[0] states: > Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. Dijkstra says it this way: > The competent programmer is fully aware of the strictly limited size of his own skull; therefore he approaches the programming task in full humility, and among other things he avoids clever tricks like the plague.[1] Knuth has a well-documented preference for "re-editable" code over reusable code. Being "re-editable" implies that the code must be readable and understandable (i.e. communicate its intention well to any future editors), if not simple. I know that I have sometimes had difficulty debugging overly clever code. I am not inclined to disagree with the giants on this one. --- [0]: https://www.defprogramming.com/q/188353f216dd/ https://www.defprogramming.com/q/188353f216dd/ [1]: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/E...