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Looking at history with our current perspective, so were: Edgar Allen Poe, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Mohammed, Henry VIII, ...

toolslive 5y ago
Between 2000 and 2015 there were at least 207,468 child marriages in the United States of which over 1,000 marriage licences were for children under 15, some as young as ten years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Americas
UntitledNo4 5y ago
"The Criminal Law Amendment Act 1935 raised the age to 17, with more severe penalties under age 15, and disallowed a defence of mistake." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#History_11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Hist... Seems to be the perspective of his contemporaries as well.
hirundo 5y ago
- luma 5y ago
  I like hwere your head is at but I think God can take the blame on that one, who did so without Mary's prior consent.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    "And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her." - Luke 1:38 She gave her consent.
    - freedom2099 5y ago
      But he was god… could she really be in the position to refuse? It’s like Monica and Bill Clinton… a poor intern with a powerful president! That is why it is usually forbidden for a person in power to hit on an underling!
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        As I said below, a cursory look at Christianity teaches the God respects human free will. It's partly why so much evil is in the world. If Mary had refused (which she could have), he would have respected that decision. The Jewish people would have needed to wait longer for their messiah, and it might not be the year 2022 right now. Also, God is not a human, and is not subject to the human weakness that a position in power has for underlings.
        fleurjs 5y ago
        God is at fault for giving free will to humans.
        gjsman-1000 5y ago
        Well, funnily enough, he put us in a Garden where we had everything we could possibly want and we had free will, but had no knowledge of what evil was. However, because we had free will and he didn't want little robots, he put a tree in it with fruit that would give us that knowledge if we freely choose it, but warned us of the consequences. We chose the knowledge. And we made that choice pretty quickly off the bat too, Adam and Eve hadn't even had any kids yet when they made that decision. And now, thousands of thousands of years later (in the grand scheme of things according to the Bible), a Hacker News commenter complains that God shouldn't have given us free will to make that decision and we would have been happier staying robots. Philosophically profound that is.
        fleurjs 5y ago
        Not a complaint but a fact.
    - joshgrib 5y ago
      It seems like the angel tells her in Luke 1:31 that it's happening whether she wants it to or not > "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus" It's nice that she accepts it afterwards, but that's definitely not how consent works, and it doesn't seem like she was given any other option Edit: I saw your other comment saying "there's other evidence of god respecting free will and he probably would have been fine with it if she didn't want to". The bible is full of contradictions so there may be evidence of a respect for free will somewhere else, but this specific story seems to contradict that
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        There's a difference between prediction and commanding. It's like when a father tells his daughter she'll get married and have three sweet little children. That doesn't mean it's immediately set in stone and she's forced to.
        joshgrib 5y ago
        I can agree with that, but as far as we see in the text it is a command - she's never told she has another option and we as the readers aren't given any indication that she thinks there is. I get that there's a charitable interpretation here if you look for it but I'm trying to just go based on what it says in the book
        krapp 5y ago
        At least we can all agree YHWH was a bit more more polite about it than, say, Zeus would have been.
    - WithinReason 5y ago
      God was in a position of power. Infinite power.
  - harperlee 5y ago
    Pretty sure it was accepted by Mary by standard account.
  - joshgrib 5y ago
    Oof I never really realized that the Christian god is canonically a rapist
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      Christianity teaches that God respects human free will. It's partly why so much evil is in the world. If Mary had refused (which she could have), he would have respected that decision and we might be living in year 1970 right now.
      - joshgrib 5y ago
        Christianity may teach that today, but it isn't what the story is. Do you have any evidence from the text showing that she had another choice? God also murders tons of people in the bible without consulting them, which definitely cannot be done while also respecting their free will
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    You bet she gave consent to Joseph, she even lied and said she was impregnated by an angel to her parents when she had to explain the result. To someone today that would be laughed off and sent to court, but at the time they ran with it... simpler times :D
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      Oh right, as if he didn't do miracles left and right, raise from the dead, and predict the fall of Jerusalem 40 years before it happened. That's your hangup with the story?
      - joshgrib 5y ago
        It was pretty commonplace to lie to avoid the social persecution of having a baby outside of marriage. This was still fairly common even recently - a young girl would go to a nunnery and them come back with a child "they adopted". There is also no evidence of any miracles aside from games of telephone played over centuries. We also have plenty of equally verified accounts of virgin births from other religions going back even further than Jesus. So if we're believing any claims of virgin birth followed by claims of miracles, then the Christian god must surely be lying by saying they're the only god This seems like a nice little summary of all the other similar claims: https://www.smh.com.au/national/there-s-nothing-new-about-virgin-births-just-ask-plato-20191225-p53mui.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/there-s-nothing-new-about-vi... > Claims of divine intervention aside, virgin births may have a more human explanation – a tragic demonstration of the extreme measures women have been forced to take to save themselves and their reputations.
- f154hfds 5y ago
  So how are we determining Mary's age during these events? Seems pretty speculative :)
Giorgi 5y ago
and even in recent history: David Bowie, Fergie, Jerry Seinfeld, Joel Madden, Kobe Bryant, Luc Besson, Steven Tyler, Paul Walker, Jerry Lee Lewis, and many, many more.
- tsol 5y ago
  I mean most rockers from the 80s and 90s. People don't really talk about it much, but it's in their autobiographies and everything. They were all with underage groupies and it's no secret-- people just really like their work so they try to avoid thinking about it too much. Which is how Steven Tyler can be a host on American Idol
CWuestefeld 5y ago
I'm not sure why we feel a need to look at history through this particular lens. I think that Schrodinger's work, or Poe's writing, should be appreciated for the great achievements they are, and we don't need to consider the person from whose minds they sprang. Does creating a list of past greats who did naughty things accomplish anything except maybe to broaden the Overton window for those naughty things? (Hey, if this person's so great and they did it, why shouldn't I?)

toolslive 5y ago

Between 2000 and 2015 there were at least 207,468 child marriages in the United States of which over 1,000 marriage licences were for children under 15, some as young as ten years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Americas

UntitledNo4 5y ago

"The Criminal Law Amendment Act 1935 raised the age to 17, with more severe penalties under age 15, and disallowed a defence of mistake." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#History_11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Hist... Seems to be the perspective of his contemporaries as well.

hirundo 5y ago

luma 5y ago
I like hwere your head is at but I think God can take the blame on that one, who did so without Mary's prior consent.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  "And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her." - Luke 1:38 She gave her consent.
  - freedom2099 5y ago
    But he was god… could she really be in the position to refuse? It’s like Monica and Bill Clinton… a poor intern with a powerful president! That is why it is usually forbidden for a person in power to hit on an underling!
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      As I said below, a cursory look at Christianity teaches the God respects human free will. It's partly why so much evil is in the world. If Mary had refused (which she could have), he would have respected that decision. The Jewish people would have needed to wait longer for their messiah, and it might not be the year 2022 right now. Also, God is not a human, and is not subject to the human weakness that a position in power has for underlings.
      - fleurjs 5y ago
        God is at fault for giving free will to humans.
        gjsman-1000 5y ago
        Well, funnily enough, he put us in a Garden where we had everything we could possibly want and we had free will, but had no knowledge of what evil was. However, because we had free will and he didn't want little robots, he put a tree in it with fruit that would give us that knowledge if we freely choose it, but warned us of the consequences. We chose the knowledge. And we made that choice pretty quickly off the bat too, Adam and Eve hadn't even had any kids yet when they made that decision. And now, thousands of thousands of years later (in the grand scheme of things according to the Bible), a Hacker News commenter complains that God shouldn't have given us free will to make that decision and we would have been happier staying robots. Philosophically profound that is.
        fleurjs 5y ago
        Not a complaint but a fact.
  - joshgrib 5y ago
    It seems like the angel tells her in Luke 1:31 that it's happening whether she wants it to or not > "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus" It's nice that she accepts it afterwards, but that's definitely not how consent works, and it doesn't seem like she was given any other option Edit: I saw your other comment saying "there's other evidence of god respecting free will and he probably would have been fine with it if she didn't want to". The bible is full of contradictions so there may be evidence of a respect for free will somewhere else, but this specific story seems to contradict that
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      There's a difference between prediction and commanding. It's like when a father tells his daughter she'll get married and have three sweet little children. That doesn't mean it's immediately set in stone and she's forced to.
      - joshgrib 5y ago
        I can agree with that, but as far as we see in the text it is a command - she's never told she has another option and we as the readers aren't given any indication that she thinks there is. I get that there's a charitable interpretation here if you look for it but I'm trying to just go based on what it says in the book
        krapp 5y ago
        At least we can all agree YHWH was a bit more more polite about it than, say, Zeus would have been.
  - WithinReason 5y ago
    God was in a position of power. Infinite power.
- harperlee 5y ago
  Pretty sure it was accepted by Mary by standard account.
- joshgrib 5y ago
  Oof I never really realized that the Christian god is canonically a rapist
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Christianity teaches that God respects human free will. It's partly why so much evil is in the world. If Mary had refused (which she could have), he would have respected that decision and we might be living in year 1970 right now.
    - joshgrib 5y ago
      Christianity may teach that today, but it isn't what the story is. Do you have any evidence from the text showing that she had another choice? God also murders tons of people in the bible without consulting them, which definitely cannot be done while also respecting their free will
- xwolfi 5y ago
  You bet she gave consent to Joseph, she even lied and said she was impregnated by an angel to her parents when she had to explain the result. To someone today that would be laughed off and sent to court, but at the time they ran with it... simpler times :D
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Oh right, as if he didn't do miracles left and right, raise from the dead, and predict the fall of Jerusalem 40 years before it happened. That's your hangup with the story?
    - joshgrib 5y ago
      It was pretty commonplace to lie to avoid the social persecution of having a baby outside of marriage. This was still fairly common even recently - a young girl would go to a nunnery and them come back with a child "they adopted". There is also no evidence of any miracles aside from games of telephone played over centuries. We also have plenty of equally verified accounts of virgin births from other religions going back even further than Jesus. So if we're believing any claims of virgin birth followed by claims of miracles, then the Christian god must surely be lying by saying they're the only god This seems like a nice little summary of all the other similar claims: https://www.smh.com.au/national/there-s-nothing-new-about-virgin-births-just-ask-plato-20191225-p53mui.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/there-s-nothing-new-about-vi... > Claims of divine intervention aside, virgin births may have a more human explanation – a tragic demonstration of the extreme measures women have been forced to take to save themselves and their reputations.
f154hfds 5y ago
So how are we determining Mary's age during these events? Seems pretty speculative :)

Giorgi 5y ago

and even in recent history: David Bowie, Fergie, Jerry Seinfeld, Joel Madden, Kobe Bryant, Luc Besson, Steven Tyler, Paul Walker, Jerry Lee Lewis, and many, many more.

tsol 5y ago
I mean most rockers from the 80s and 90s. People don't really talk about it much, but it's in their autobiographies and everything. They were all with underage groupies and it's no secret-- people just really like their work so they try to avoid thinking about it too much. Which is how Steven Tyler can be a host on American Idol

CWuestefeld 5y ago

I'm not sure why we feel a need to look at history through this particular lens. I think that Schrodinger's work, or Poe's writing, should be appreciated for the great achievements they are, and we don't need to consider the person from whose minds they sprang. Does creating a list of past greats who did naughty things accomplish anything except maybe to broaden the Overton window for those naughty things? (Hey, if this person's so great and they did it, why shouldn't I?)