6 ms·

Ah yes I can now see why providing healthcare and canceling student debt didn't fit into the budget. :pew-pew:

dragontamer 5y ago
We kind of have this problem with Taiwan right now (and China is definitely taking advantage of it) because we've been on the Arleigh Burkes Destroyers for far too long. China has newer ships with more stealth and firepower than our set of older Destroyers. Fortunately, China has very few capital ships, but the huge mass of smaller ships (Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes) that China is building is already outnumbering the US Navy.
- ahelwer 5y ago
  There’ll always be something. When you have a presence and interests (???) in most countries of the world, along with a compliant domestic media willing to go along with whatever story you put out there about how our Capabilities have to be Augmented to Address the Emerging Threat, there will never be a time now or in the future when we can all agree that it is finally safe to massively decrease military funding. You just have to see the game for what it is (a giant scam) and opt out. The US military should be disarmed and turned into a purely domestically-defensive force.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    So your solution is for Taiwan to be annexed by China? Do you think your computer chips (Apple M1, AMD Zen, etc. etc.) are going to be readily supplied from Taiwan under these conditions? Is this annexation good and proper for the world? Is it a benefit of US interests to let this happen? ---------- China has no ability to attack the USA domestically. The issue is what China can do in the Asian-sphere of influence, and whether or not that's net-benefit to us in general. Not just China either, North Korea almost certainly would flatten South Korea and take over it without the US military presence holding the DMZ. We've also been able to force a peace between Korea and Japan by outlawing Japan's military, and promising protection of Japan with our forces. A lot of our foreign influence and politics revolve around military strength, both the good and the bad. EDIT: Finally, pirate attacks are virtually nonexistent. Any pirate dumb-enough to try to take over a ship on the high-seas is obliterated by the US Navy. For better or for worse, we actually need a strong navy (with special ops units) to hunt down would-be pirates and discourage them from popping up.
    - ahelwer 5y ago
      Keep spinning those stories! Now I feel much better about paying hundreds of bucks a month in health insurance premiums to a company that would happily leave me to die in more excruciating pain than normal if it fit their bottom line. Any alternative must be foreclosed because $2022_STATE_DEPT_VILLAIN is on the verge of committing some dastardly deed! To single it out, the idea of NK desiring invasion of SK is utterly ridiculous. Tom Clancy tier ridiculous.
    - justicezyx 5y ago
      > China has no ability to attack the USA domestically I kind of getting tired of controlling myself about this type of comments that lacks the most basic understanding of the reality... For God's sake, China has nuclear ballistic missile in the 60s... What kind of sutpidity am I seeing...
      - dodobirdlord 5y ago
        Nobody ever counts nuclear weapons when they’re talking about this, and for good reason.
    - littlestymaar 5y ago
      For starter, maybe the US doesn't need to be involved in both Ukraine, the middle East and Pacific at the same time don't you think? An army twice or thrice less big could easily fend off China's threat on Taiwan, but it cannot do so while threatening Iran and Russia at the same time… > Do you think your computer chips (Apple M1, AMD Zen, etc. etc.) are going to be readily supplied from Taiwan under these conditions? And how many computer do you think you're gonna make with those chips without all the other parts which overwhelmingly come from China?
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        > For starter, maybe the US doesn't need to be involved in both Ukraine, the middle East and Pacific at the same time don't you think? So your plan is... to cede Ukraine to Russia, cede Taiwan to China, and let the Kurds get slaughtered and have Iran build a nuke? Sure, its annoying that there's problems all around the world, but we all know that no one else is going to step up to do something about it. If no one else is stepping up, then we should. That's about it. Letting Iran's nuclear program complete would seem like a major mistake. Letting North Korea's nuclear program progress + their space / ICBM program progress is also a mistake IMO. Etc. etc.
  - unclebucknasty 5y ago
    Not sure what you're envisioning as a "purely domestically-defensive force". For instance, would our Navy just guard our shorelines? An effective "defensive force" for a nation like the U.S. in today's world needs offensive capabilities. While degree is arguable, we certainly cannot simply ignore everything else that goes on in the world and expect to retain a viable domestic defense.
    - unclebucknasty 5y ago
      Not sure why this is controversial. The idea that we'd have a "purely domestically-defensive force" doesn't compute. What does that even mean—defensive weapons guarding the homeland and forces deployed to protect only our coastline/waterways, land masses, and airspace? Meanwhile China claims Taiwan and Russia re-annexes Ukraine and the rest of the former Soviet-bloc countries, etc.? Of course we need to project power in various spheres of influence in order to provide for our overall defense. And, of course, that means offensive capabilities as a deterrent.
  - jonnybgood 5y ago
    > The US military should be disarmed and turned into a purely domestically-defensive force. How would US specifically benefit from this?
    - ahelwer 5y ago
      There are a few ways: (1) Many people living in the US (myself included) would feel much relieved at their tax dollars not going toward bombing teenagers, weddings, or whatever other Enemy Combatants were yesterday identified with a High Degree of Certainty (2) The money currently flowing toward said bombing could be repurposed toward general domestic social good, for example in housing, healthcare, or education (3) Hard to overstate the whole "not continually murdering people on an industrial scale" thing but many people in the US are general humanists and would probably appreciate it
      - myrandomcomment 5y ago
        The ability of the US to pay for all of this is a function of our ability to be the strongest kid on the block both economically and military. Your supposed return value of money would go up in a puff of smoke if the US did what you suggested. The dollars place as a reserve currency is key and moving away from that as you suggest would leave zero for the programs you suggest as the economy would collapse. I am not making a judgement on the value of greater investment in social wellbeing, which I generally support, however I am pointing out that our ability to do this is strongly linked to our place in the world order and can’t be so simply disconnected. Your moral outrage, correct or not, does not change the economy reality.
hash872 5y ago
The US already 'provides' healthcare now. In 2020 the government spent $769 billion on Medicare and $714 billion on the military- so, America spends more on healthcare for the elderly than the entire military budget. The government also spent $458 billion on Medicaid- combining the two, America spent 70% more on healthcare than the military. That's without getting into other social spending like Social Security, which alone is another 60% higher than the entire military budget. Despite the common misperception, the US spends way, way more on social welfare expenditures than defense! I am personally fine with that, I'm just fascinated that so many people believe otherwise when the government publishes its budget online for anyone to see https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I would argue of course that a 50-50 split between medicare and the armed forces is totally irrational in the first place :) It's more an issue of value for money, of course, as US per capita expenditure on medical care is 2x what Canada pays, and still manages not to actually cover everyone. In theory the medicare + medicaid + VA budget should be enough to cover everyone, yet it only covers 40% of Americans.
  - sornaensis 5y ago
    The US spends more per capita because we don't control prices the same way other sane countries do; the military budget rhetoric is just a smokescreen to keep people voting in folks who are lining their own pockets. As if shrinking one would increase the effectiveness of the other. The money and resources are THERE they just don't get USED effectively.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      Indeed, and disinformation about alternative systems. [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-former-cigna-executive-praises-canadas-health-care-system https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-...
    - 5y ago
philwelch 5y ago
Cancelling student debt by itself is a stupid and fundamentally unsustainable idea. I’d be open to the idea if it was a one-time thing, coupled with an immediate abolition of subsidized student loans, making private student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy, or allowing lenders to make loans conditional on what you majored in. Just cancelling student debt by itself without fixing the root cause of the problem is just a one-time generational wealth transfer; millennials acting like boomers.

We kind of have this problem with Taiwan right now (and China is definitely taking advantage of it) because we've been on the Arleigh Burkes Destroyers for far too long. China has newer ships with more stealth and firepower than our set of older Destroyers. Fortunately, China has very few capital ships, but the huge mass of smaller ships (Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes) that China is building is already outnumbering the US Navy.

ahelwer 5y ago
There’ll always be something. When you have a presence and interests (???) in most countries of the world, along with a compliant domestic media willing to go along with whatever story you put out there about how our Capabilities have to be Augmented to Address the Emerging Threat, there will never be a time now or in the future when we can all agree that it is finally safe to massively decrease military funding. You just have to see the game for what it is (a giant scam) and opt out. The US military should be disarmed and turned into a purely domestically-defensive force.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  So your solution is for Taiwan to be annexed by China? Do you think your computer chips (Apple M1, AMD Zen, etc. etc.) are going to be readily supplied from Taiwan under these conditions? Is this annexation good and proper for the world? Is it a benefit of US interests to let this happen? ---------- China has no ability to attack the USA domestically. The issue is what China can do in the Asian-sphere of influence, and whether or not that's net-benefit to us in general. Not just China either, North Korea almost certainly would flatten South Korea and take over it without the US military presence holding the DMZ. We've also been able to force a peace between Korea and Japan by outlawing Japan's military, and promising protection of Japan with our forces. A lot of our foreign influence and politics revolve around military strength, both the good and the bad. EDIT: Finally, pirate attacks are virtually nonexistent. Any pirate dumb-enough to try to take over a ship on the high-seas is obliterated by the US Navy. For better or for worse, we actually need a strong navy (with special ops units) to hunt down would-be pirates and discourage them from popping up.
  - ahelwer 5y ago
    Keep spinning those stories! Now I feel much better about paying hundreds of bucks a month in health insurance premiums to a company that would happily leave me to die in more excruciating pain than normal if it fit their bottom line. Any alternative must be foreclosed because $2022_STATE_DEPT_VILLAIN is on the verge of committing some dastardly deed! To single it out, the idea of NK desiring invasion of SK is utterly ridiculous. Tom Clancy tier ridiculous.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > China has no ability to attack the USA domestically I kind of getting tired of controlling myself about this type of comments that lacks the most basic understanding of the reality... For God's sake, China has nuclear ballistic missile in the 60s... What kind of sutpidity am I seeing...
    - dodobirdlord 5y ago
      Nobody ever counts nuclear weapons when they’re talking about this, and for good reason.
  - littlestymaar 5y ago
    For starter, maybe the US doesn't need to be involved in both Ukraine, the middle East and Pacific at the same time don't you think? An army twice or thrice less big could easily fend off China's threat on Taiwan, but it cannot do so while threatening Iran and Russia at the same time… > Do you think your computer chips (Apple M1, AMD Zen, etc. etc.) are going to be readily supplied from Taiwan under these conditions? And how many computer do you think you're gonna make with those chips without all the other parts which overwhelmingly come from China?
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      > For starter, maybe the US doesn't need to be involved in both Ukraine, the middle East and Pacific at the same time don't you think? So your plan is... to cede Ukraine to Russia, cede Taiwan to China, and let the Kurds get slaughtered and have Iran build a nuke? Sure, its annoying that there's problems all around the world, but we all know that no one else is going to step up to do something about it. If no one else is stepping up, then we should. That's about it. Letting Iran's nuclear program complete would seem like a major mistake. Letting North Korea's nuclear program progress + their space / ICBM program progress is also a mistake IMO. Etc. etc.
- unclebucknasty 5y ago
  Not sure what you're envisioning as a "purely domestically-defensive force". For instance, would our Navy just guard our shorelines? An effective "defensive force" for a nation like the U.S. in today's world needs offensive capabilities. While degree is arguable, we certainly cannot simply ignore everything else that goes on in the world and expect to retain a viable domestic defense.
  - unclebucknasty 5y ago
    Not sure why this is controversial. The idea that we'd have a "purely domestically-defensive force" doesn't compute. What does that even mean—defensive weapons guarding the homeland and forces deployed to protect only our coastline/waterways, land masses, and airspace? Meanwhile China claims Taiwan and Russia re-annexes Ukraine and the rest of the former Soviet-bloc countries, etc.? Of course we need to project power in various spheres of influence in order to provide for our overall defense. And, of course, that means offensive capabilities as a deterrent.
- jonnybgood 5y ago
  > The US military should be disarmed and turned into a purely domestically-defensive force. How would US specifically benefit from this?
  - ahelwer 5y ago
    There are a few ways: (1) Many people living in the US (myself included) would feel much relieved at their tax dollars not going toward bombing teenagers, weddings, or whatever other Enemy Combatants were yesterday identified with a High Degree of Certainty (2) The money currently flowing toward said bombing could be repurposed toward general domestic social good, for example in housing, healthcare, or education (3) Hard to overstate the whole "not continually murdering people on an industrial scale" thing but many people in the US are general humanists and would probably appreciate it
    - myrandomcomment 5y ago
      The ability of the US to pay for all of this is a function of our ability to be the strongest kid on the block both economically and military. Your supposed return value of money would go up in a puff of smoke if the US did what you suggested. The dollars place as a reserve currency is key and moving away from that as you suggest would leave zero for the programs you suggest as the economy would collapse. I am not making a judgement on the value of greater investment in social wellbeing, which I generally support, however I am pointing out that our ability to do this is strongly linked to our place in the world order and can’t be so simply disconnected. Your moral outrage, correct or not, does not change the economy reality.

hash872 5y ago

The US already 'provides' healthcare now. In 2020 the government spent $769 billion on Medicare and $714 billion on the military- so, America spends more on healthcare for the elderly than the entire military budget. The government also spent $458 billion on Medicaid- combining the two, America spent 70% more on healthcare than the military. That's without getting into other social spending like Social Security, which alone is another 60% higher than the entire military budget. Despite the common misperception, the US spends way, way more on social welfare expenditures than defense! I am personally fine with that, I'm just fascinated that so many people believe otherwise when the government publishes its budget online for anyone to see https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170

arcticbull 5y ago
I would argue of course that a 50-50 split between medicare and the armed forces is totally irrational in the first place :) It's more an issue of value for money, of course, as US per capita expenditure on medical care is 2x what Canada pays, and still manages not to actually cover everyone. In theory the medicare + medicaid + VA budget should be enough to cover everyone, yet it only covers 40% of Americans.
- sornaensis 5y ago
  The US spends more per capita because we don't control prices the same way other sane countries do; the military budget rhetoric is just a smokescreen to keep people voting in folks who are lining their own pockets. As if shrinking one would increase the effectiveness of the other. The money and resources are THERE they just don't get USED effectively.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Indeed, and disinformation about alternative systems. [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-former-cigna-executive-praises-canadas-health-care-system https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-...
  - 5y ago

philwelch 5y ago

Cancelling student debt by itself is a stupid and fundamentally unsustainable idea. I’d be open to the idea if it was a one-time thing, coupled with an immediate abolition of subsidized student loans, making private student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy, or allowing lenders to make loans conditional on what you majored in. Just cancelling student debt by itself without fixing the root cause of the problem is just a one-time generational wealth transfer; millennials acting like boomers.