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If I have money for every article that rail against DS&A algorithm.... I don't understand why people hate DS&A so much. Just do it. Get money, jump ship, get m

If I have money for every article that rail against DS&A algorithm.... I don't understand why people hate DS&A so much. Just do it. Get money, jump ship, get more money, it also makes you a better engineer. It gives you better compensation, it helps you, helps everyone, helps your team, your company. It helps avoid wasting time as well on both sides. There is no downside of studying DS&A and Leetcode, if there is, the downside is minimal. And yes, you can have DS&A knowledge without handicapping your other software engineering knowledge. It is a fallacy to think that a Leetcode monkey wouldn't be able to code resilient, robust software, with good variables and good readable, maintainable code, and vice versa. Like, seriously. Why this is even an argument? And after DS&A interview, there is behavioral questions interview. If someone is a crazy person, ideally behavioral questions would weed that out. I don't understand why people prefer "here take home questions/work for 5 hours for free" over DS&A interview. Also, it is "Green Lumber fallacy" to think that a knowledge of "how webpack 1, 2, 3, 4, and nth build system in JavaScript here works" will make you a better engineer. Those kinds of knowledge aren't long lasting, and it is also quite easy to learn relative to DS&A. Here is the problem with these kinds of articles. Majority of them are written by people who hate these kinds of interview questions, and by extension, they probably aren't that good at it. There are articles that sing praise of DS&A interview but of course it doesn't get here on HN because it is not controversial and the number of bitter SWE who don't have DS&A knowledge overwhelms those who do. Not saying the author doesn't have DS&A knowlege, just my generalization. And yes of course there are people who excel at software engineering without DS&A, but that's not the point of DS&A interview. The point of DS&A interview is as fast as possible system to vet engineers that aren't time wasting on both sides. It accomplish its purpose nicely. Engineers aren't as non-fungible as they think. Deal with it.

MattGaiser 5y ago
My objection is maintaining an entirely unrelated skillset that I have never encounter in my day to day work. It is a skill that you will lose if you spend a year without interviewing/leetcode practicing. Sure I’ll do it, but you may as well test me on painting famous oil artwork from memory too. > I don't understand why people prefer "here take home questions/work for 5 hours for free" over DS&A interview. The alternative is hundreds of hours of speculative investment memorizing books/websites of algos. People will take full time courses on passing these interviews.
- convolvatron 5y ago
  imagine if you were actually an oil painter...you pass the interview with flying colors and show up to work and there is nary a brush in sight
  - Smoosh 5y ago
    "Your job in the team will be to apply the gesso to the raw canvas".
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  Yes, well said. If these skills maintained themselves after being learned through day to day, I wouldn’t mind interviews centered around them. But they don’t, and probably won’t unless I shift to much lower level work, so it’s a ton of extra work and stress for the sake of being able to pass an interview.
- tharne 5y ago
  > My objection is maintaining an entirely unrelated skillset that I have never encounter in my day to day work. This is precisely my objection. Time is the one thing you can't make more of, so to have companies force you to learn and maintain a skillset that's completely irrelevant to doing real work is incredibly demoralizing.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  But I do get to implement these in some my day to day work. Not everyday of course, but every other month there are some problems that I used my DSA knowledge to solve. Graph problems are pretty common, even in frontend stuff. Often times I have to write my own library.
lostcolony 5y ago
>> "There is no downside of studying DS&A and Leetcode, if there is, the downside is minimal." - Personal time taken that is not relevant to the job? >> Also, it is "Green Lumber fallacy" to think that a knowledge of "how webpack 1, 2, 3, 4, and nth build system in JavaScript here works" will make you a better engineer. Those kinds of knowledge aren't long lasting, and it is also quite easy to learn relative to DS&A. - Being able to demonstrate that you know how A build system works, and the details enough to show you've had to actually solve issues with it, may not be long lasting, but it does show you learn your tools. >> I don't understand why people prefer "here take home questions/work for 5 hours for free" over DS&A interview. - Awfully presumptive to assume they should be unpaid. I'd also take an unpaid, but interesting and novel engineering problem, over the unpaid hours of grinding leetcode that is considered interview prep. >> Here is the problem with these kinds of articles. Majority of them are written by people who hate these kinds of interview questions, and by extension, they probably aren't that good at it. - I'm a hiring manager and I hate them, from both sides of the interview table, because it tells me nothing about the candidate that I want to know. I've done them, I've both passed and failed them (entirely dependent on the question, my frame of mind at the time, if it's one I've done before or where I can easily come up with the 'clever' solution, etc); I also recognize they're measuring a very specific thing (your willingness to do bullshit prep work), that isn't job related. I'll also add, the same arguments in favor of DS&A algorithms apply to those lateral thinking brain teasers that no one uses any more, the "how many manhole covers are there in NYC" style of thing.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  I mean, you can have all of it u know. Like learning JS and then Webpack etc etc with DSA as well. I do it. Everyone else does it. How many manhole in NYC questions is hand wavy and not precise. Totally different than DSA.
MarkMarine 5y ago
I came here to basically say this. You want the big salary at the fancy company, show me you put in the work to earn it.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  The alternative is way way way worse for both the companies and the candidates. While DSA is basically upside for everyone but especially, especially the candidates. Learn once, use it many times, rack many offers. Its like cheating mode.
- vertr 5y ago
gigel82 5y ago
> The point of DS&A interview is as fast as possible system to vet engineers that aren't time wasting on both sides I have to disagree. Doing LeetCode problems is a huge waste of time for me; I'm not interested in a career as a "professional interviewee". Yes, I'm totally leaving money on the table because of it but I refuse to participate in their 5 monkey experiment.

MattGaiser 5y ago

My objection is maintaining an entirely unrelated skillset that I have never encounter in my day to day work. It is a skill that you will lose if you spend a year without interviewing/leetcode practicing. Sure I’ll do it, but you may as well test me on painting famous oil artwork from memory too. > I don't understand why people prefer "here take home questions/work for 5 hours for free" over DS&A interview. The alternative is hundreds of hours of speculative investment memorizing books/websites of algos. People will take full time courses on passing these interviews.

convolvatron 5y ago
imagine if you were actually an oil painter...you pass the interview with flying colors and show up to work and there is nary a brush in sight
- Smoosh 5y ago
  "Your job in the team will be to apply the gesso to the raw canvas".
kitsunesoba 5y ago
Yes, well said. If these skills maintained themselves after being learned through day to day, I wouldn’t mind interviews centered around them. But they don’t, and probably won’t unless I shift to much lower level work, so it’s a ton of extra work and stress for the sake of being able to pass an interview.
tharne 5y ago
> My objection is maintaining an entirely unrelated skillset that I have never encounter in my day to day work. This is precisely my objection. Time is the one thing you can't make more of, so to have companies force you to learn and maintain a skillset that's completely irrelevant to doing real work is incredibly demoralizing.
mrkentutbabi 5y ago
But I do get to implement these in some my day to day work. Not everyday of course, but every other month there are some problems that I used my DSA knowledge to solve. Graph problems are pretty common, even in frontend stuff. Often times I have to write my own library.

lostcolony 5y ago

>> "There is no downside of studying DS&A and Leetcode, if there is, the downside is minimal." - Personal time taken that is not relevant to the job? >> Also, it is "Green Lumber fallacy" to think that a knowledge of "how webpack 1, 2, 3, 4, and nth build system in JavaScript here works" will make you a better engineer. Those kinds of knowledge aren't long lasting, and it is also quite easy to learn relative to DS&A. - Being able to demonstrate that you know how A build system works, and the details enough to show you've had to actually solve issues with it, may not be long lasting, but it does show you learn your tools. >> I don't understand why people prefer "here take home questions/work for 5 hours for free" over DS&A interview. - Awfully presumptive to assume they should be unpaid. I'd also take an unpaid, but interesting and novel engineering problem, over the unpaid hours of grinding leetcode that is considered interview prep. >> Here is the problem with these kinds of articles. Majority of them are written by people who hate these kinds of interview questions, and by extension, they probably aren't that good at it. - I'm a hiring manager and I hate them, from both sides of the interview table, because it tells me nothing about the candidate that I want to know. I've done them, I've both passed and failed them (entirely dependent on the question, my frame of mind at the time, if it's one I've done before or where I can easily come up with the 'clever' solution, etc); I also recognize they're measuring a very specific thing (your willingness to do bullshit prep work), that isn't job related. I'll also add, the same arguments in favor of DS&A algorithms apply to those lateral thinking brain teasers that no one uses any more, the "how many manhole covers are there in NYC" style of thing.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
I mean, you can have all of it u know. Like learning JS and then Webpack etc etc with DSA as well. I do it. Everyone else does it. How many manhole in NYC questions is hand wavy and not precise. Totally different than DSA.

MarkMarine 5y ago

I came here to basically say this. You want the big salary at the fancy company, show me you put in the work to earn it.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
The alternative is way way way worse for both the companies and the candidates. While DSA is basically upside for everyone but especially, especially the candidates. Learn once, use it many times, rack many offers. Its like cheating mode.
vertr 5y ago

gigel82 5y ago

> The point of DS&A interview is as fast as possible system to vet engineers that aren't time wasting on both sides I have to disagree. Doing LeetCode problems is a huge waste of time for me; I'm not interested in a career as a "professional interviewee". Yes, I'm totally leaving money on the table because of it but I refuse to participate in their 5 monkey experiment.