8 ms·

Supreme Court Halts Vaccine Mandate That Covered 80M Workers

50 points by CrankyBear 5y ago

CrankyBear 5y ago
defaultprimate 5y ago
- 0x500x79 5y ago
  Can you please outline what your point is? Excess deaths in the U.S. align with these numbers. I don't think it is valuable to attempt the pedantry of "with" versus "from", when there is clearly some causation.
  - verdverm 5y ago
    An interesting question is how many would have died if America was not so obese? It seems, given the comorbidities, that governments should have been messaging on this front much more than they have. The with to from covid is a spectrum with inconsistent definition.
    - drekk 5y ago
      Brazil has a lower obesity rate and much higher fatalities. It's a multifaceted problem and I think it's irresponsible to paint this as a "if you die from COVID it's your fault because you had comorbidities". That's eugenics. If you're drunk and get into a car crash the ER is still going to treat you. It's a shame governments worried so much about messaging instead of sending free PPE and paying people + small businesses to stay home for a month or so and actually enforce it.
    - dham 5y ago
      That's kind of where I'm at this point. I just want to know the non obese number to know what I need to do for myself besides vaccination and already having the virus. Or can I just go on with life? It's really the same way I want to know how many people die of Lung cancer that aren't smokers so I can get radon detectors for home and not be around people that smoke and potentially any other risk factors I'm at.
      - verdverm 5y ago
        There is information out there for things you can do, but it's largely been labeled anti-vax because it's often paired with questions about the need for vaccines in healthy individuals. Science has suffered greatly in this pandemic, I'm worried for the rippling effect in the future.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      80% of hospitalizations in the US were overweight or obese, the number is even more egregious for under-65 hospitalizations and deaths.
    - nradov 5y ago
      Obesity is a huge factor. If we had a zero obesity rate I suspect that would cut the infection fatality rate by at least 2/3. https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-children-in-covid-icus-are-overweight-but-public-health-officials-rarely-talk-about-obesity https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-c... https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/view/1118/1127 https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/vi... https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospitalization-obesity-teenagers/ https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospital...
    - 0x500x79 5y ago
      Fair question. We are still operating in the real world. US has an obesity epidemic and that should be fixed, that doesn't prevent the real-world death and healthcare stresses that we are seeing and will be many years of work before the obesity epidemic is tackled. We have to operate in the world we live in with the precautions we take. We can't just blanket say: "Well you all are obese, so we aren't going to do anything" and instead are trying to do something that might help millions more not die. I have a lot of reservations about many of the tactics, but at the same time the answer is not "do nothing" (which I don't think you are recommending, but is the recommendation of some that repeat these talking points).
    - hindsightbias 5y ago
      Maybe in the past, but today since everyone is obese by the standards a couple generations back it’s not significant datapoint.
    - anamax 5y ago
      There's some data (small sample, vaccinated people only) at https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7101a4-H.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7101a4-H.pdf .
    - geraldyo 5y ago
      And what is your point exactly? COVID can kill an individual thousands of times faster than they can shed their other comorbities. So then what? In an ideal world, the government would have focused on health YEARS ago, but that's not real life. In real life my grandmother cannot walk and is overweight, and thus cannot do almost anything about it. So should she just die in your scenario? And that's fine because she's older and fat?
      - verdverm 5y ago
        My point is that there has been a singular focus rather than talking about all of the things that can help. Obesity and losing weight is just one of those. Several policy decisions ignore the science and have made matters worse.
        drekk 5y ago
        I don't see how you're going to legislate for people to weigh less
      - nradov 5y ago
        The pandemic has been on for 2 years now. Everyone can reduce obesity by consuming fewer calories even if unable to exercise. Let's focus on finding solutions instead of making excuses.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    I'm just holding Bloomberg to the same standards the CDC director holds herself to. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wave-of-excess-deaths-not-explained-by-covid-qp9sqld8n https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wave-of-excess-deaths-not... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761 https://udumbara.net/prime-age-mortality-up-40-percent-majority-of-deaths-not-from-covid-19 https://udumbara.net/prime-age-mortality-up-40-percent-major... https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-covid-doesnt-account-trend-unexplained.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-covid-doesnt-account-... https://www.usmortality.com/excess-absolute https://www.usmortality.com/excess-absolute
    - 0x500x79 5y ago
      This terminology ("with") has been used problematically in the past including calling into question covid death numbers. Including a commonly repeated line of: "All deaths right now are accounted to covid because everyone has covid." and then downplaying the severity of what is going on. We should be more clear about the use of language when stating things like this because, frankly, the words we use matter. This post in particular does not explain what the goal of your statement is. I looked at a few of these and funny enough it calls out that covid is still partially responsible for the excess deaths, just not directly: i.e. full ICU beds, lack of care due to covid healthcare stresses, and other indirect causes. There are other excess death causes right now including drug epidemics but we should not attempt to downplay that a large amount of the excess deaths are directly accountable to the covid situation.
  - hitpointdrew 5y ago
    The point is that COVID isn't nearly as dangerous as the the non-stop media fear drums are making it out to be. A gallup poll shows that an un-vaccinated person only has 0.8% chance of even going to the hospital if they catch covid, which means dying FROM covid is even less. The risk of death is exceptionally low and the response to the virus has been extremely disproportionate to it's actual threat. Including a gun shot victim, or a heart attack victim, etc. in the COVID death numbers is extremely disingenuous.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      But how are they to run a fear campaign if they can't manipulate the numbers, and how will the companies profiting from the scare be successful if they can't use shady tactics to achieve their desired goals?
      - drekk 5y ago
        They don't need to run a fear campaign, they already own you. Most companies are losing money, especially the ones generally calling the shots. Kind of hard to exploit the plebes when they keep getting sick and infecting all the other serfs. Really pathetic how human brains prefer good narratives to simple ones. A novel coronavirus (from the world that brought you Ebola, H1N1, Zika) becoming super prevalent and disrupting volatile networks of interdependence <<< a global conspiracy to further control citizens that already live under a so-called "Patriot Act" surveillance state.
    - drekk 5y ago
      Dying isn't the only outcome, and you can't work while you're sick. This isn't some flu, it has long term implications for 10-30% of those infected and is extremely contagious. Many ICUs are at capacity or beyond it, and it wasn't long ago NYC and Milan were storing bodies in refrigerated containers. A small percentage of a big number is still a big number, if anything our response has been underwhelming. How do you want to explain away the excess death numbers? We are undercounting COVID deaths in the US, especially in rural areas where vaccination rates are lower. Globally the same thing is true. Excess deaths in 2020 and 2021 are higher than tallied COVID fatalities and other explanations don't account for the magnitude of the difference. What's disingenuous is saying everyone is too afraid of the virus when non-tech sectors still have to go in to work, all of the financial support for those impacted dried up, 20% of all inpatient beds registered with the HHS are in use specifically for COVID, etc. A million or more Americans are dead of COVID and most of those were easily preventable. The only thing saving us from that number being much higher is an extremely high-tech medical system and passable infrastructure. If we had a death rate like Brazil with the case loads we're experiencing maybe more people would take it seriously and get a jab. Or not, at this point I expect nothing from US citizens. It's unbelievable to me that antivax sentiment has been allowed to fester in the "marketplace for free ideas" that we've forgotten how life was before robust public vaccination campaigns.
hirundo 5y ago
A better article: https://archive.ph/Cyixf#selection-595.0-595.247 https://archive.ph/Cyixf#selection-595.0-595.247 "The vote in the employer mandate case was 6 to 3, with liberal justices in dissent. The vote in the health care case was 5 to 4, with Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh joining the liberal justices to form a majority. ... the court’s conservative majority seemed doubtful that the administration had congressional authorization to impose the requirements." Does anyone have a guess as to how a vote by Congress to authorize OSHA vaccine mandates would fair? Would it be one of the purely partisan issues, like Build Back Better and the voting legislation? I suppose that the fact that it hasn't already passed is evidence that it wouldn't.
- verdverm 5y ago
  They've certainly passed significant legislation towards covid, yet have not included vaccine mandates in any. My guess is that by the time anything got through, we'll be past the omicron surge and Americans will be talking inflation and elections. We might also hear some musing about the conservative supreme court and needing to expand it to change the majority.
- MissionInfl 5y ago
  >Does anyone have a guess as to how a vote by Congress to authorize OSHA vaccine mandates would fair? If I understand correctly, S.J. Res 29 [1] is a senate resolution that answers this exact question. Looking at the voting result [2], 2 Democrats voted YAY (ie expressing disapproval of the mandate) along with some Independents and all Republicans. This leads me to believe that a similar rule would not pass the Senate. Although there could be more to the story, eg I don't know the motivation that the two Democrats had when voting YAY, especially given at least to my understanding this kind of vote is more symbolic than anything. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-joint-resolution/29 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-joint-re... [2] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1171/vote_117_1_00489.htm https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...
  - jcadam 5y ago
zwieback 5y ago
Now it'll be interesting to see where states and large companies go, as they still have the freedom to impose mandates.
- dham 5y ago
  If an all remote company wants to impose a vaccine mandate I suppose they can...., but I mean it seems like a huge waste of time. Hiring in engineering is already so hard right now no need to make it harder.
  - hogrider 5y ago
    Litmus test for determining common sense. Or if you get cynical, "cultural fit".
    - dham 5y ago
      Are you saying if someone isn't vaccinated for Covid 19 they can't be a good team member and contributor at a high level? Because that sounds really really bad.. and dangerous.
      - kbelder 5y ago
        I assumed he meant it the other way around, as showing management lacks common sense by imposing the mandate under those conditions. But I guess it could go either way, depending on one's preconceptions.
      - peteradio 5y ago
        Could read it either way. If a remote company has stupid policies on full display, imagine the unseen policies.
      - jcadam 5y ago
        People are saying it. And it is really bad and dangerous
- hindsightbias 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jcadam 5y ago
Well, I left my 15+ year career in the defense industry due to Joe's federal contractor mandate. Maybe that one will get struck down next and then I can go back. If I want to.

50 points by CrankyBear 5y ago

CrankyBear 5y ago

defaultprimate 5y ago

0x500x79 5y ago
Can you please outline what your point is? Excess deaths in the U.S. align with these numbers. I don't think it is valuable to attempt the pedantry of "with" versus "from", when there is clearly some causation.
- verdverm 5y ago
  An interesting question is how many would have died if America was not so obese? It seems, given the comorbidities, that governments should have been messaging on this front much more than they have. The with to from covid is a spectrum with inconsistent definition.
  - drekk 5y ago
    Brazil has a lower obesity rate and much higher fatalities. It's a multifaceted problem and I think it's irresponsible to paint this as a "if you die from COVID it's your fault because you had comorbidities". That's eugenics. If you're drunk and get into a car crash the ER is still going to treat you. It's a shame governments worried so much about messaging instead of sending free PPE and paying people + small businesses to stay home for a month or so and actually enforce it.
  - dham 5y ago
    That's kind of where I'm at this point. I just want to know the non obese number to know what I need to do for myself besides vaccination and already having the virus. Or can I just go on with life? It's really the same way I want to know how many people die of Lung cancer that aren't smokers so I can get radon detectors for home and not be around people that smoke and potentially any other risk factors I'm at.
    - verdverm 5y ago
      There is information out there for things you can do, but it's largely been labeled anti-vax because it's often paired with questions about the need for vaccines in healthy individuals. Science has suffered greatly in this pandemic, I'm worried for the rippling effect in the future.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    80% of hospitalizations in the US were overweight or obese, the number is even more egregious for under-65 hospitalizations and deaths.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Obesity is a huge factor. If we had a zero obesity rate I suspect that would cut the infection fatality rate by at least 2/3. https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-children-in-covid-icus-are-overweight-but-public-health-officials-rarely-talk-about-obesity https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-c... https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/view/1118/1127 https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/vi... https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospitalization-obesity-teenagers/ https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospital...
  - 0x500x79 5y ago
    Fair question. We are still operating in the real world. US has an obesity epidemic and that should be fixed, that doesn't prevent the real-world death and healthcare stresses that we are seeing and will be many years of work before the obesity epidemic is tackled. We have to operate in the world we live in with the precautions we take. We can't just blanket say: "Well you all are obese, so we aren't going to do anything" and instead are trying to do something that might help millions more not die. I have a lot of reservations about many of the tactics, but at the same time the answer is not "do nothing" (which I don't think you are recommending, but is the recommendation of some that repeat these talking points).
  - hindsightbias 5y ago
    Maybe in the past, but today since everyone is obese by the standards a couple generations back it’s not significant datapoint.
  - anamax 5y ago
    There's some data (small sample, vaccinated people only) at https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7101a4-H.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7101a4-H.pdf .
  - geraldyo 5y ago
    And what is your point exactly? COVID can kill an individual thousands of times faster than they can shed their other comorbities. So then what? In an ideal world, the government would have focused on health YEARS ago, but that's not real life. In real life my grandmother cannot walk and is overweight, and thus cannot do almost anything about it. So should she just die in your scenario? And that's fine because she's older and fat?
    - verdverm 5y ago
      My point is that there has been a singular focus rather than talking about all of the things that can help. Obesity and losing weight is just one of those. Several policy decisions ignore the science and have made matters worse.
      - drekk 5y ago
        I don't see how you're going to legislate for people to weigh less
    - nradov 5y ago
      The pandemic has been on for 2 years now. Everyone can reduce obesity by consuming fewer calories even if unable to exercise. Let's focus on finding solutions instead of making excuses.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  I'm just holding Bloomberg to the same standards the CDC director holds herself to. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wave-of-excess-deaths-not-explained-by-covid-qp9sqld8n https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wave-of-excess-deaths-not... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761 https://udumbara.net/prime-age-mortality-up-40-percent-majority-of-deaths-not-from-covid-19 https://udumbara.net/prime-age-mortality-up-40-percent-major... https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-covid-doesnt-account-trend-unexplained.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-covid-doesnt-account-... https://www.usmortality.com/excess-absolute https://www.usmortality.com/excess-absolute
  - 0x500x79 5y ago
    This terminology ("with") has been used problematically in the past including calling into question covid death numbers. Including a commonly repeated line of: "All deaths right now are accounted to covid because everyone has covid." and then downplaying the severity of what is going on. We should be more clear about the use of language when stating things like this because, frankly, the words we use matter. This post in particular does not explain what the goal of your statement is. I looked at a few of these and funny enough it calls out that covid is still partially responsible for the excess deaths, just not directly: i.e. full ICU beds, lack of care due to covid healthcare stresses, and other indirect causes. There are other excess death causes right now including drug epidemics but we should not attempt to downplay that a large amount of the excess deaths are directly accountable to the covid situation.
- hitpointdrew 5y ago
  The point is that COVID isn't nearly as dangerous as the the non-stop media fear drums are making it out to be. A gallup poll shows that an un-vaccinated person only has 0.8% chance of even going to the hospital if they catch covid, which means dying FROM covid is even less. The risk of death is exceptionally low and the response to the virus has been extremely disproportionate to it's actual threat. Including a gun shot victim, or a heart attack victim, etc. in the COVID death numbers is extremely disingenuous.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    But how are they to run a fear campaign if they can't manipulate the numbers, and how will the companies profiting from the scare be successful if they can't use shady tactics to achieve their desired goals?
    - drekk 5y ago
      They don't need to run a fear campaign, they already own you. Most companies are losing money, especially the ones generally calling the shots. Kind of hard to exploit the plebes when they keep getting sick and infecting all the other serfs. Really pathetic how human brains prefer good narratives to simple ones. A novel coronavirus (from the world that brought you Ebola, H1N1, Zika) becoming super prevalent and disrupting volatile networks of interdependence <<< a global conspiracy to further control citizens that already live under a so-called "Patriot Act" surveillance state.
  - drekk 5y ago
    Dying isn't the only outcome, and you can't work while you're sick. This isn't some flu, it has long term implications for 10-30% of those infected and is extremely contagious. Many ICUs are at capacity or beyond it, and it wasn't long ago NYC and Milan were storing bodies in refrigerated containers. A small percentage of a big number is still a big number, if anything our response has been underwhelming. How do you want to explain away the excess death numbers? We are undercounting COVID deaths in the US, especially in rural areas where vaccination rates are lower. Globally the same thing is true. Excess deaths in 2020 and 2021 are higher than tallied COVID fatalities and other explanations don't account for the magnitude of the difference. What's disingenuous is saying everyone is too afraid of the virus when non-tech sectors still have to go in to work, all of the financial support for those impacted dried up, 20% of all inpatient beds registered with the HHS are in use specifically for COVID, etc. A million or more Americans are dead of COVID and most of those were easily preventable. The only thing saving us from that number being much higher is an extremely high-tech medical system and passable infrastructure. If we had a death rate like Brazil with the case loads we're experiencing maybe more people would take it seriously and get a jab. Or not, at this point I expect nothing from US citizens. It's unbelievable to me that antivax sentiment has been allowed to fester in the "marketplace for free ideas" that we've forgotten how life was before robust public vaccination campaigns.

hirundo 5y ago

A better article: https://archive.ph/Cyixf#selection-595.0-595.247 https://archive.ph/Cyixf#selection-595.0-595.247 "The vote in the employer mandate case was 6 to 3, with liberal justices in dissent. The vote in the health care case was 5 to 4, with Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh joining the liberal justices to form a majority. ... the court’s conservative majority seemed doubtful that the administration had congressional authorization to impose the requirements." Does anyone have a guess as to how a vote by Congress to authorize OSHA vaccine mandates would fair? Would it be one of the purely partisan issues, like Build Back Better and the voting legislation? I suppose that the fact that it hasn't already passed is evidence that it wouldn't.

verdverm 5y ago
They've certainly passed significant legislation towards covid, yet have not included vaccine mandates in any. My guess is that by the time anything got through, we'll be past the omicron surge and Americans will be talking inflation and elections. We might also hear some musing about the conservative supreme court and needing to expand it to change the majority.
MissionInfl 5y ago
>Does anyone have a guess as to how a vote by Congress to authorize OSHA vaccine mandates would fair? If I understand correctly, S.J. Res 29 [1] is a senate resolution that answers this exact question. Looking at the voting result [2], 2 Democrats voted YAY (ie expressing disapproval of the mandate) along with some Independents and all Republicans. This leads me to believe that a similar rule would not pass the Senate. Although there could be more to the story, eg I don't know the motivation that the two Democrats had when voting YAY, especially given at least to my understanding this kind of vote is more symbolic than anything. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-joint-resolution/29 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-joint-re... [2] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1171/vote_117_1_00489.htm https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...
- jcadam 5y ago

zwieback 5y ago

Now it'll be interesting to see where states and large companies go, as they still have the freedom to impose mandates.

dham 5y ago
If an all remote company wants to impose a vaccine mandate I suppose they can...., but I mean it seems like a huge waste of time. Hiring in engineering is already so hard right now no need to make it harder.
- hogrider 5y ago
  Litmus test for determining common sense. Or if you get cynical, "cultural fit".
  - dham 5y ago
    Are you saying if someone isn't vaccinated for Covid 19 they can't be a good team member and contributor at a high level? Because that sounds really really bad.. and dangerous.
    - kbelder 5y ago
      I assumed he meant it the other way around, as showing management lacks common sense by imposing the mandate under those conditions. But I guess it could go either way, depending on one's preconceptions.
    - peteradio 5y ago
      Could read it either way. If a remote company has stupid policies on full display, imagine the unseen policies.
    - jcadam 5y ago
      People are saying it. And it is really bad and dangerous
hindsightbias 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jcadam 5y ago

Well, I left my 15+ year career in the defense industry due to Joe's federal contractor mandate. Maybe that one will get struck down next and then I can go back. If I want to.