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Expanding out of the Bay Area has been standard practice basically forever. Unless a company has infinite budgets and plans to maintain small org sizes forever

Expanding out of the Bay Area has been standard practice basically forever. Unless a company has infinite budgets and plans to maintain small org sizes forever, keeping your entire workforce in the Bay Area doesn’t really scale. The real question to ask is: Where are these new jobs? Remote? Satellite offices? New foreign offices? Remote is the hot topic, but I haven’t actually seen as many remote listings as I expected given all of the talk. For many of these companies, it could be as simple as opening new offices in other cities. If they’re opening offices in expensive locations like Seattle or NYC then it’s not really about cost of living. On the other hand, if they really are embracing remote and hiring out of non-traditional locations then maybe it is more about cost of hiring. However, in that case I’ve personally experienced companies become eager to skip the US altogether and start hiring in even cheaper international locations with untapped talent. It’s complicated. > Talent in the Bay Area are fetching astonishing pay ($600k for L6) While it’s true that top Bay Area engineers can fetch $600K, it’s much more rare than it can look. Take a look at the median compensation for software engineers in the Bay Area some time. It’s a fraction of that number. Those ultra high paying FAANG jobs aren’t the typical software job, even in the Bay Area. > A fried of mine refused to interview for position like that despite being very junior! She decided the cost of living is not worth it. Top Bay Area compensation should be enough to offset the higher cost of living for someone living in an apartment. The cost of living for something like a 1 or even 2-bedroom apartment is negligible for someone who can get into a FAANG job in the Bay. On the other hand, taking a median software job in the Bay Area is definitely not worth the cost of living increase, IMO, unless you’re using it as a pivot into a FAANG level job later.

jakub_g 5y ago
> Remote is the hot topic, but I haven’t actually seen as many remote listings as I expected given all of the talk. Many companies don't openly advertise remote for all positions, but companies are so starved for experienced talent that if a good remote candidate applied with 5+ yr exp, they would be very happy to consider it (modulo restrictions in timezone / country due to paperwork involved)
- ssharp 5y ago
  Shoe-horning your remote self into a position that the company would prefer not to be remote seems like a big risk for stagnation.
  - jakub_g 5y ago
    IMO the shift to remote is not gonna be reverted (at least in companies above certain size; small startups may work differently); some companies know it under their skin, but didn't internalize it yet enough to be open about it in their job posts; probably they will very soon. A few observations: - Often there are already many remote people in the company, and the lack of "remote ok" on job posting might be simply due to: 1) overlook; 2) not wanting too many otherwise unsuitable applicants, perhaps; 3) they may have one job post for generic 'sw dev' position while they try to recruit 100 people to 50 teams; some teams behind this are more remote-ok, others are less - In my current company, quite a few folks have recently moved away from high cost of living HQ city to smaller city, staying as remote, and got mortgages etc. which means they won't move back. Definitely before joining, you need to ask questions and ideally find a team which is already 100% remote or close; being the only remote person in a team will suck.
  - NtGuy25 5y ago
    I was recently looking for positions and it seems like most of these companies are hiring you as a filler until they get someone just as good. So you're 100 % right. Without sounding controversial. Most promotions and good things at a job come from people skills rather than technical. And if you can get into the "Good old boys" club or just make friends, then you usually succeed. WFH doesn't really have those options, so not only does the company not want you to WFH, you also arn't making connections and relationships. After hearing some horror stories from people who took the jump earlier in Covid, I decided against it, since it's exactly what you said. 100 % stagnation. Although, the only people I have heard doing well are our sysadmins/IT friends. They are very asynchronous and can easily work 3 jobs with no conflicts and are doing very well.
    - jakub_g 5y ago
baby-yoda 5y ago
> On the other hand, taking a median software job in the Bay Area is definitely not worth the cost of living increase, IMO, unless you’re using it as a pivot into a FAANG level job later. not too familiar with the Bay Area - are median companies not already priced out due to the CoL and inability to compete on salary? or are the only remnants VC funded startups that are less sensitive to that?
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Look at it this way: There are plenty of Bay Area non-software jobs where people are getting by on $100K or less. It’s not as comfortable as $100K in a small city, but people do it. There’s no reason that an average software developer couldn’t work an average software job for an average salary there and get by. Contrary to what you read on Blind, HN, and other websites, there are actually a lot of engineers in the Bay Area who aren’t interested in crushing it 24/7 and are happy to take a comfy job as long as it pays the bills and nobody bothers them to much, just like any other location. That said, most of the median-paid engineers I’ve managed (remotely) in the Bay Area had other contributors to their situation, like having bought a house there 20 years ago or inherited a house from their parents. I don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone to move to the Bay Area now for a median-pay job there unless they really, really want to live in the Bay Area. And some people do! It’s actually a fun place to be, especially if you’re young. Not perfect, obviously, but very fun if you play your cards right.
  - erehweb 5y ago
    In 2018, the Department of Housing and Urban Development said that $117K for a family of 4 was low income in SF. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44725026 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44725026
arnvald 5y ago
> The real question to ask is: Where are these new jobs? Remote? Satellite offices? New foreign offices? Living in Amsterdam, NL, I can say that I've started seeing A LOT more opportunities from American companies in the last 12 months. From top of my head: Netflix, Meta, Github, Stripe, Plaid, Lemonade, Box, Amazon - they all target developers in Amsterdam on LinkedIn (some offer "remote anywhere" options, but still put Amsterdam as location to show up in search results)
- weatherlite 5y ago
  They target Amsterdam because they already have a financial center there - at least Github and Lemonade. Many times its the European entity for the company (NL and Ireland are very popular choices for business expansion in the EU).
  - arnvald 5y ago
    That's possible, Netherlands and Ireland are kind of tax havens in EU. The point remains - the number of job offers from American companies has visibly increased compared to 1-2 years ago.
    - weatherlite 5y ago
      For sure, totally agreeing it has increased - just wanted to shed some light on why specifically Dublin/Amsterdam (and to lesser extent Paris/Berlin) win a lot of these jobs.
- rowanajmarshall 5y ago
  London too, American VC's and Big Tech are pouring heaps of money into the local tech industry.
- Cymrukicks 5y ago
  But are they actually hiring? I have seen these ads but they all seem like CV farms no actual plan for hiring. Adverts up for months on end, it really puts me off applying.
bradlys 5y ago
The median income stats usually don’t factor in stock compensation. All sources I’ve seen only reference salary.
treis 5y ago
> but I haven’t actually seen as many remote listings as I expected given all of the talk I've recently done two searches for remote jobs. One in late 2020/early 2021 and another late 2021. The difference is monumental. For the first one almost everyone was "remote until Covid is over". Now the majority are "remote first" and almost all the hold outs have some amount of remote first teams. Almost nobody at this point has a hard requirement that generic coders must be in the office.
smokey_circles 5y ago
If I got a job for a top tier firm and all I could afford was a 2 bedroom apartment, I'd suspect I was played. What was the point then? "Come for the tech" sure and leave because of anything/everything else. One of many reasons I will never set foot in the US with the intent to stay: Y'all are nuts

jakub_g 5y ago

> Remote is the hot topic, but I haven’t actually seen as many remote listings as I expected given all of the talk. Many companies don't openly advertise remote for all positions, but companies are so starved for experienced talent that if a good remote candidate applied with 5+ yr exp, they would be very happy to consider it (modulo restrictions in timezone / country due to paperwork involved)

ssharp 5y ago
Shoe-horning your remote self into a position that the company would prefer not to be remote seems like a big risk for stagnation.
- jakub_g 5y ago
  IMO the shift to remote is not gonna be reverted (at least in companies above certain size; small startups may work differently); some companies know it under their skin, but didn't internalize it yet enough to be open about it in their job posts; probably they will very soon. A few observations: - Often there are already many remote people in the company, and the lack of "remote ok" on job posting might be simply due to: 1) overlook; 2) not wanting too many otherwise unsuitable applicants, perhaps; 3) they may have one job post for generic 'sw dev' position while they try to recruit 100 people to 50 teams; some teams behind this are more remote-ok, others are less - In my current company, quite a few folks have recently moved away from high cost of living HQ city to smaller city, staying as remote, and got mortgages etc. which means they won't move back. Definitely before joining, you need to ask questions and ideally find a team which is already 100% remote or close; being the only remote person in a team will suck.
- NtGuy25 5y ago
  I was recently looking for positions and it seems like most of these companies are hiring you as a filler until they get someone just as good. So you're 100 % right. Without sounding controversial. Most promotions and good things at a job come from people skills rather than technical. And if you can get into the "Good old boys" club or just make friends, then you usually succeed. WFH doesn't really have those options, so not only does the company not want you to WFH, you also arn't making connections and relationships. After hearing some horror stories from people who took the jump earlier in Covid, I decided against it, since it's exactly what you said. 100 % stagnation. Although, the only people I have heard doing well are our sysadmins/IT friends. They are very asynchronous and can easily work 3 jobs with no conflicts and are doing very well.
  - jakub_g 5y ago

baby-yoda 5y ago

> On the other hand, taking a median software job in the Bay Area is definitely not worth the cost of living increase, IMO, unless you’re using it as a pivot into a FAANG level job later. not too familiar with the Bay Area - are median companies not already priced out due to the CoL and inability to compete on salary? or are the only remnants VC funded startups that are less sensitive to that?

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Look at it this way: There are plenty of Bay Area non-software jobs where people are getting by on $100K or less. It’s not as comfortable as $100K in a small city, but people do it. There’s no reason that an average software developer couldn’t work an average software job for an average salary there and get by. Contrary to what you read on Blind, HN, and other websites, there are actually a lot of engineers in the Bay Area who aren’t interested in crushing it 24/7 and are happy to take a comfy job as long as it pays the bills and nobody bothers them to much, just like any other location. That said, most of the median-paid engineers I’ve managed (remotely) in the Bay Area had other contributors to their situation, like having bought a house there 20 years ago or inherited a house from their parents. I don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone to move to the Bay Area now for a median-pay job there unless they really, really want to live in the Bay Area. And some people do! It’s actually a fun place to be, especially if you’re young. Not perfect, obviously, but very fun if you play your cards right.
- erehweb 5y ago
  In 2018, the Department of Housing and Urban Development said that $117K for a family of 4 was low income in SF. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44725026 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44725026

arnvald 5y ago

> The real question to ask is: Where are these new jobs? Remote? Satellite offices? New foreign offices? Living in Amsterdam, NL, I can say that I've started seeing A LOT more opportunities from American companies in the last 12 months. From top of my head: Netflix, Meta, Github, Stripe, Plaid, Lemonade, Box, Amazon - they all target developers in Amsterdam on LinkedIn (some offer "remote anywhere" options, but still put Amsterdam as location to show up in search results)

weatherlite 5y ago
They target Amsterdam because they already have a financial center there - at least Github and Lemonade. Many times its the European entity for the company (NL and Ireland are very popular choices for business expansion in the EU).
- arnvald 5y ago
  That's possible, Netherlands and Ireland are kind of tax havens in EU. The point remains - the number of job offers from American companies has visibly increased compared to 1-2 years ago.
  - weatherlite 5y ago
    For sure, totally agreeing it has increased - just wanted to shed some light on why specifically Dublin/Amsterdam (and to lesser extent Paris/Berlin) win a lot of these jobs.
rowanajmarshall 5y ago
London too, American VC's and Big Tech are pouring heaps of money into the local tech industry.
Cymrukicks 5y ago
But are they actually hiring? I have seen these ads but they all seem like CV farms no actual plan for hiring. Adverts up for months on end, it really puts me off applying.

bradlys 5y ago

The median income stats usually don’t factor in stock compensation. All sources I’ve seen only reference salary.

treis 5y ago

> but I haven’t actually seen as many remote listings as I expected given all of the talk I've recently done two searches for remote jobs. One in late 2020/early 2021 and another late 2021. The difference is monumental. For the first one almost everyone was "remote until Covid is over". Now the majority are "remote first" and almost all the hold outs have some amount of remote first teams. Almost nobody at this point has a hard requirement that generic coders must be in the office.

smokey_circles 5y ago

If I got a job for a top tier firm and all I could afford was a 2 bedroom apartment, I'd suspect I was played. What was the point then? "Come for the tech" sure and leave because of anything/everything else. One of many reasons I will never set foot in the US with the intent to stay: Y'all are nuts