8 ms·

Adhole.org is shutting down

124 points by genzer 5y ago

JimWestergren 5y ago
>Since the endpoints even made it into XDA articles, I will make sure to keep the domain registered and under my control for the next year, to prevent adhole.org from being abused by DNS hijackers/spoofers. Nobody else then me that thinks that 1 year is too soon here? Cost of domain renewal is very little.
- olivierduval 5y ago
  Actually : it's a really nice move to keep this domain up and under control for one year! Moreover, I guess that people relying on this service will soon start to see the errors, go to the website, understand the situation and move on... so 1 year is quite enough I think. It's not like it was a service people use once a year...
  - tw04 5y ago
    - float4 5y ago
      Oh come on, you can't be that cynical? The creator started the project 5 years ago because people around him without technical ability wanted a DNS ad blocker, but didn't know how to setup pi-hole. His peak MRR through Patreon was 13$, and he received one or two separate donations of ~10$ every month as well. The servers alone cost him more money than he received. Dutch source: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-van-tweaker-freekers-gaat-offline.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-v...
      - tw04 5y ago
        aulin 5y ago
        where did he say he's not willing to sell or let a steward step in for domain maintainance costs?
        necovek 5y ago
        While they never said they wouldn't hand it over to a steward, it also requires MORE work on their part to vet any strangers to ensure they are not there to abuse the system. Handing it over to another public ad-blocking DNS resolver might be reasonable, but I think it's more honest to disable to service to let users know (in spectacularly failing way, true) that this particular service is going offline (basically, don't transfer the data to a service these customers have not signed up for). Since it's DNS, they could also just resolve everything to their own homepage saying the service is dead, but that would still break a bunch of non-web-browser apps.
      - orangepurple 5y ago
        > Oh come on, you can't be that cynical? Christel Dahlskjaer, the former head of Freenode's staff who transferred her interest in Freenode Limited to Lee, resigned in March. Dahlskjaer, with the help of Richard “RichiH” Hartmann, took over Freenode after project originator Rob Levin (lilo) died in a traffic accident in 2006 and Levin’s brother tried to turn the project into business. She was an employee of PIA at the time of the Freenode Limited transaction. What did Christel Dahlskjaer do next? https://www.indexoncensorship.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/EMK_8241web-1.jpg https://www.indexoncensorship.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - olivierduval 5y ago
      I think that it would be more efficient to do so NOW, when a lot of people rely on his product, than in 1 year, when most people will have found something else... As this product will stop working, people will move on quite fastly I think it's just responsible. And maybe he dosen't want to be the one that allowed triggering a lot of porn ads on people that trusted him (and his domain) to avoid ads
    - gnud 5y ago
      But how can he know which steward to trust? If you want to be sure your users won't get sold out, best to simply shut down.
    - dreamyfigment 5y ago
      After what happened with uBlock I wouldn't trust anyone to continue a project like this. Much better to shut it down and to allow the community to come up with an alternative.
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    While it is a nice move. I think the best option is to crowdsource retaining the domain for 5-years or so. Since the cost of a domain renewal isn't that much I personally would be willing to chip in for 2-years of that cost. Because if that domain comes up for grab it will most likely be caught during the auction period by someone looking to get ad money.
KronisLV 5y ago
> ...grew out to become a worldwide multi-node adblocking DNS network with thousands of concurrent users around the globe… but that also meant more server load, which meant upgrading servers, more incident (reports) and as such more work. In other words; the project has become a victim of its own success. Isn't this a problem that most hobbyist projects that get big have to deal with in some capacity? To me it seems like maybe a case of deciding between monetizing it somehow and having a business around it with multiple other developers partaking in the development/maintenance processes, donating/selling the entire project to some company or foundation, or pulling the plug as we see here.
- Maxburn 5y ago
  Yes, but there seem to be plenty of competition in this space. Entering into that pool probably didn't look attractive.
- genzer 5y ago
  This reminds of the journey of the creator of icanhazip [1]. He had created it and maintained it through several milestones _on his own_ until he could no longer carry on. Luckily it ended on a good note as Cloudflare decided to "buy" it. [1]: https://major.io/2021/06/06/a-new-future-for-icanhazip/ https://major.io/2021/06/06/a-new-future-for-icanhazip/
- akuji1993 5y ago
  Pretty much as you described it. And you can't blame these guys for one second. Who would pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for upkeep without getting any revenue from it. Kinda sad that OSS and "community-friendly" projects like these mostly end up like this or bought and monetized. But it's totally understandable.
- capableweb 5y ago
  No, I think it's a problem of over-engineering and subsequently ending up with fragile systems. If the author had a service that didn't take up much time for them to maintain because of the various problems that appeared, they probably wouldn't close down the project. One case worth mentioning: The Pirate Bay. One the of the largest websites in the world (or was at least), with the least amount of technical focus. The website hardly changed, never made the owners any money, they never focused on the technology but rather built the simplest thing they could for the smallest amount of money the could. They had the largest adversary at that time, but still, the website is up and running and basically been since day 1. I think their trick is that they never really cared about the technology itself, and only cared about making information free.
thealistra 5y ago
nextdns.io seems to be similar and I recommend it
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  I pay for NextDNS since the day they started taking payments. Great service, never had any issues.
- wombat-man 5y ago
  worth every penny
- dewey 5y ago
  Seconded, never had any issues with it. One of these cases where letting someone provide a honest service for money is worth more than fiddling around with self-hosting something myself.
bigoldie 5y ago
https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-van-tweaker-freekers-gaat-offline.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-v... This is an article (in Dutch) with the same news, but the owner responds in the comments: I started it at the time because I noticed in my circle of acquaintances that there was interest in adblocking at DNS level, but that they didn't have the knowledge to set up and maintain a Pihole themselves. Five years ago, the world looked a little different and there were almost no public services that offered this (for free) and since I had a spare server, I took the chance. During the process, I learned a lot. From Docker to Ansible but also from DNS itself. Especially DNS amplification attacks were big troublemakers in the beginning, which Pi-hole couldn't handle. Logical too, because Pi-hole is actually not meant to be used publicly, the developers make that very clear in their documentation. At the time I tried to find a way around this with all kinds of iptable rules and that worked reasonably well, but support for things like DNS over TLS or DNS over HTTPs was missing in Pi-hole. Again logical, normally there is no need to encrypt your DNS requests on your own trusted LAN. A year or two ago I switched to Adguard Home as backend, since Adguard does support these features and also has some basic security features on board like rate limiting. That's also when I moved everything to an Ansible Playbook so I could easily reinstall everything with one push of a button, e.g. when buying a new node. I often bought new nodes during Black Friday or Cyber Monday on sites like Lowendspirit. Some nodes were sponsored by providers themselves, because they liked the idea. Now after five years I stop. Lately, I put more energy into it than I got satisfaction from it. In addition, the servers were bursting at the seams, making the latency of each request far too high. You noticed this while surfing and I don't want to do that to anyone. Bigger servers are an option, but the money has to come from somewhere. By the way, I would have preferred horizontal scaling instead of vertical, but the number of (affordable) providers offering anycast IPs is scarce (BuyVM is one of them). Fortunately, there are now plenty of other services that offer the same thing for next to nothing, so hopefully ex-Adhole users will not fall into a deep hole. ------ In the end, the 'iron' has to be paid. Part of the servers was sponsored, the rest came from donations and from my own pocket. Upgrading was easier said than done, because with 6 locations and therefore 6 servers, all costs are multiplied by 6. Going to providers for an upgrade on an already sponsored server was something I didn't do (something about a given horse). And asking for donations has never been the intention of this project. I saw it as a hobby and a hobby costs money, but it must remain fun. By the way, this was not the main reason to stop, it was really the time it took and the lack of satisfaction I got from it. IP addresses would sometimes change for various reasons. For example because a provider cancelled his location, a migration to another node or simply a switch to another provider. That was irritating because all users then had to change the IP address of their DNS. I think if you really want to do it right, you have to have your own IP range (and that is very expensive). I have no tips about incidents. However, since the new intermediate certificate at Let's Encrypt I have had problems getting DoH and Dot to work. In the end, I did not succeed either. Why remains a mystery to me, the chain was correct.
smashah 5y ago
I've never used Adhole but thank you, maintainers of adhole, for holding out this long. I hope you move on to more fulfilling, rewarding and thankful endeavours.
ianai 5y ago
First I’m hearing of this. Was there revenue associated with this? We’re people even able to subscribe to it? It’s definitely an established business with other similar services. It’s possible to ask for funds here.
ignoramous 5y ago
> ...grew out to become a worldwide multi-node adblocking DNS network with thousands of concurrent users around the globe This is hard because DNS going down means Internet is down for anyone who isn't savvy to check and change a failing DNS upstream. And when your users are global, it might mean some really angry users if you couldn't fix emergent issues for hours on end. I run a public content-blocking DNS stub resolver. We made the decision (and subsequently paid the price upfront in terms of engineering) to host it on Fly.io (DoT), Deno Deploy (DoH), and Cloudflare Workers (DoH) to specifically avoid sysadmin tasks for what's a free offering, and the code is licensed under MPLv2 in case anyone wants to run their own stub resolver on those platforms. We haven't had much down time, if any at all, in the past one and half years we have been functional. It costs us $1 per 2tps (transactions per second: ~6M requests) for a month. The free-tier of these platforms should cover personal workloads (3 to 5 devices: ~1M requests), just fine. > I will make sure to keep the domain registered and under my control for the next year, to prevent adhole.org from being abused by DNS hijackers/spoofers. I think they could, if they want to, transfer the ownership of the domain to another public content-blocking resolver, after a year has passed. There are two or three such providers that have a very solid business backing them up to support such a migration.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  One thing that could work to warn users of impending shutdowns is to use the captive portal detection browsers come with to redirect users to a page with information before shutting the service down. This way the administrators can inform their users without having to mess with DNS traffic and commit mitm crimes just to get people to switch DNS providers.
- pkage 5y ago
  > $1 per 2tps DNS traffic What are tps? I'm not familiar with the term and couldn't turn up much. T per second?
  - bdcravens 5y ago
    transactions per second I assume
notRobot 5y ago
I used Adhole for a long time before switching to NextDNS for granular control. Thanks so much for developing and hosting Adhole!
progforlyfe 5y ago
Have they thought about.... Monetizing with ads?

124 points by genzer 5y ago

>Since the endpoints even made it into XDA articles, I will make sure to keep the domain registered and under my control for the next year, to prevent adhole.org from being abused by DNS hijackers/spoofers. Nobody else then me that thinks that 1 year is too soon here? Cost of domain renewal is very little.

olivierduval 5y ago
Actually : it's a really nice move to keep this domain up and under control for one year! Moreover, I guess that people relying on this service will soon start to see the errors, go to the website, understand the situation and move on... so 1 year is quite enough I think. It's not like it was a service people use once a year...
- tw04 5y ago
  - float4 5y ago
    Oh come on, you can't be that cynical? The creator started the project 5 years ago because people around him without technical ability wanted a DNS ad blocker, but didn't know how to setup pi-hole. His peak MRR through Patreon was 13$, and he received one or two separate donations of ~10$ every month as well. The servers alone cost him more money than he received. Dutch source: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-van-tweaker-freekers-gaat-offline.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-v...
    - tw04 5y ago
      - aulin 5y ago
        where did he say he's not willing to sell or let a steward step in for domain maintainance costs?
      - necovek 5y ago
        While they never said they wouldn't hand it over to a steward, it also requires MORE work on their part to vet any strangers to ensure they are not there to abuse the system. Handing it over to another public ad-blocking DNS resolver might be reasonable, but I think it's more honest to disable to service to let users know (in spectacularly failing way, true) that this particular service is going offline (basically, don't transfer the data to a service these customers have not signed up for). Since it's DNS, they could also just resolve everything to their own homepage saying the service is dead, but that would still break a bunch of non-web-browser apps.
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      > Oh come on, you can't be that cynical? Christel Dahlskjaer, the former head of Freenode's staff who transferred her interest in Freenode Limited to Lee, resigned in March. Dahlskjaer, with the help of Richard “RichiH” Hartmann, took over Freenode after project originator Rob Levin (lilo) died in a traffic accident in 2006 and Levin’s brother tried to turn the project into business. She was an employee of PIA at the time of the Freenode Limited transaction. What did Christel Dahlskjaer do next? https://www.indexoncensorship.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/EMK_8241web-1.jpg https://www.indexoncensorship.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - olivierduval 5y ago
    I think that it would be more efficient to do so NOW, when a lot of people rely on his product, than in 1 year, when most people will have found something else... As this product will stop working, people will move on quite fastly I think it's just responsible. And maybe he dosen't want to be the one that allowed triggering a lot of porn ads on people that trusted him (and his domain) to avoid ads
  - gnud 5y ago
    But how can he know which steward to trust? If you want to be sure your users won't get sold out, best to simply shut down.
  - dreamyfigment 5y ago
    After what happened with uBlock I wouldn't trust anyone to continue a project like this. Much better to shut it down and to allow the community to come up with an alternative.
- that_guy_iain 5y ago
  While it is a nice move. I think the best option is to crowdsource retaining the domain for 5-years or so. Since the cost of a domain renewal isn't that much I personally would be willing to chip in for 2-years of that cost. Because if that domain comes up for grab it will most likely be caught during the auction period by someone looking to get ad money.

KronisLV 5y ago

> ...grew out to become a worldwide multi-node adblocking DNS network with thousands of concurrent users around the globe… but that also meant more server load, which meant upgrading servers, more incident (reports) and as such more work. In other words; the project has become a victim of its own success. Isn't this a problem that most hobbyist projects that get big have to deal with in some capacity? To me it seems like maybe a case of deciding between monetizing it somehow and having a business around it with multiple other developers partaking in the development/maintenance processes, donating/selling the entire project to some company or foundation, or pulling the plug as we see here.

Maxburn 5y ago
Yes, but there seem to be plenty of competition in this space. Entering into that pool probably didn't look attractive.
genzer 5y ago
This reminds of the journey of the creator of icanhazip [1]. He had created it and maintained it through several milestones _on his own_ until he could no longer carry on. Luckily it ended on a good note as Cloudflare decided to "buy" it. [1]: https://major.io/2021/06/06/a-new-future-for-icanhazip/ https://major.io/2021/06/06/a-new-future-for-icanhazip/
akuji1993 5y ago
Pretty much as you described it. And you can't blame these guys for one second. Who would pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for upkeep without getting any revenue from it. Kinda sad that OSS and "community-friendly" projects like these mostly end up like this or bought and monetized. But it's totally understandable.
capableweb 5y ago
No, I think it's a problem of over-engineering and subsequently ending up with fragile systems. If the author had a service that didn't take up much time for them to maintain because of the various problems that appeared, they probably wouldn't close down the project. One case worth mentioning: The Pirate Bay. One the of the largest websites in the world (or was at least), with the least amount of technical focus. The website hardly changed, never made the owners any money, they never focused on the technology but rather built the simplest thing they could for the smallest amount of money the could. They had the largest adversary at that time, but still, the website is up and running and basically been since day 1. I think their trick is that they never really cared about the technology itself, and only cared about making information free.

thealistra 5y ago

nextdns.io seems to be similar and I recommend it

philliphaydon 5y ago
I pay for NextDNS since the day they started taking payments. Great service, never had any issues.
wombat-man 5y ago
worth every penny
dewey 5y ago
Seconded, never had any issues with it. One of these cases where letting someone provide a honest service for money is worth more than fiddling around with self-hosting something myself.

bigoldie 5y ago

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-van-tweaker-freekers-gaat-offline.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/191950/openbare-pi-hole-adhole-v... This is an article (in Dutch) with the same news, but the owner responds in the comments: I started it at the time because I noticed in my circle of acquaintances that there was interest in adblocking at DNS level, but that they didn't have the knowledge to set up and maintain a Pihole themselves. Five years ago, the world looked a little different and there were almost no public services that offered this (for free) and since I had a spare server, I took the chance. During the process, I learned a lot. From Docker to Ansible but also from DNS itself. Especially DNS amplification attacks were big troublemakers in the beginning, which Pi-hole couldn't handle. Logical too, because Pi-hole is actually not meant to be used publicly, the developers make that very clear in their documentation. At the time I tried to find a way around this with all kinds of iptable rules and that worked reasonably well, but support for things like DNS over TLS or DNS over HTTPs was missing in Pi-hole. Again logical, normally there is no need to encrypt your DNS requests on your own trusted LAN. A year or two ago I switched to Adguard Home as backend, since Adguard does support these features and also has some basic security features on board like rate limiting. That's also when I moved everything to an Ansible Playbook so I could easily reinstall everything with one push of a button, e.g. when buying a new node. I often bought new nodes during Black Friday or Cyber Monday on sites like Lowendspirit. Some nodes were sponsored by providers themselves, because they liked the idea. Now after five years I stop. Lately, I put more energy into it than I got satisfaction from it. In addition, the servers were bursting at the seams, making the latency of each request far too high. You noticed this while surfing and I don't want to do that to anyone. Bigger servers are an option, but the money has to come from somewhere. By the way, I would have preferred horizontal scaling instead of vertical, but the number of (affordable) providers offering anycast IPs is scarce (BuyVM is one of them). Fortunately, there are now plenty of other services that offer the same thing for next to nothing, so hopefully ex-Adhole users will not fall into a deep hole. ------ In the end, the 'iron' has to be paid. Part of the servers was sponsored, the rest came from donations and from my own pocket. Upgrading was easier said than done, because with 6 locations and therefore 6 servers, all costs are multiplied by 6. Going to providers for an upgrade on an already sponsored server was something I didn't do (something about a given horse). And asking for donations has never been the intention of this project. I saw it as a hobby and a hobby costs money, but it must remain fun. By the way, this was not the main reason to stop, it was really the time it took and the lack of satisfaction I got from it. IP addresses would sometimes change for various reasons. For example because a provider cancelled his location, a migration to another node or simply a switch to another provider. That was irritating because all users then had to change the IP address of their DNS. I think if you really want to do it right, you have to have your own IP range (and that is very expensive). I have no tips about incidents. However, since the new intermediate certificate at Let's Encrypt I have had problems getting DoH and Dot to work. In the end, I did not succeed either. Why remains a mystery to me, the chain was correct.

smashah 5y ago

I've never used Adhole but thank you, maintainers of adhole, for holding out this long. I hope you move on to more fulfilling, rewarding and thankful endeavours.

ianai 5y ago

First I’m hearing of this. Was there revenue associated with this? We’re people even able to subscribe to it? It’s definitely an established business with other similar services. It’s possible to ask for funds here.

ignoramous 5y ago

> ...grew out to become a worldwide multi-node adblocking DNS network with thousands of concurrent users around the globe This is hard because DNS going down means Internet is down for anyone who isn't savvy to check and change a failing DNS upstream. And when your users are global, it might mean some really angry users if you couldn't fix emergent issues for hours on end. I run a public content-blocking DNS stub resolver. We made the decision (and subsequently paid the price upfront in terms of engineering) to host it on Fly.io (DoT), Deno Deploy (DoH), and Cloudflare Workers (DoH) to specifically avoid sysadmin tasks for what's a free offering, and the code is licensed under MPLv2 in case anyone wants to run their own stub resolver on those platforms. We haven't had much down time, if any at all, in the past one and half years we have been functional. It costs us $1 per 2tps (transactions per second: ~6M requests) for a month. The free-tier of these platforms should cover personal workloads (3 to 5 devices: ~1M requests), just fine. > I will make sure to keep the domain registered and under my control for the next year, to prevent adhole.org from being abused by DNS hijackers/spoofers. I think they could, if they want to, transfer the ownership of the domain to another public content-blocking resolver, after a year has passed. There are two or three such providers that have a very solid business backing them up to support such a migration.

jeroenhd 5y ago
One thing that could work to warn users of impending shutdowns is to use the captive portal detection browsers come with to redirect users to a page with information before shutting the service down. This way the administrators can inform their users without having to mess with DNS traffic and commit mitm crimes just to get people to switch DNS providers.
pkage 5y ago
> $1 per 2tps DNS traffic What are tps? I'm not familiar with the term and couldn't turn up much. T per second?
- bdcravens 5y ago
  transactions per second I assume

notRobot 5y ago

I used Adhole for a long time before switching to NextDNS for granular control. Thanks so much for developing and hosting Adhole!

progforlyfe 5y ago

Have they thought about.... Monetizing with ads?