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I think the real issue is that changing the companies always gave bigger raise in pay than staying in the company for most of the folks. Most were not changing

I think the real issue is that changing the companies always gave bigger raise in pay than staying in the company for most of the folks. Most were not changing jobs due to multiple factors like relations, not having to change house, comfort, good office, free food etc. Now this all factors have reduced a lot that staying in current company is looking even worse option. So till employers are able to retain using other means like interesting work or that employers are able to give 20-30% raise each year(which is pretty hard) the time people stay in the same company will low.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
>* employers are able to give 20-30% raise each year(which is pretty hard)* Can’t be that hard if an engineer can just walk out and get that. What do you think the replacement will cost? And with none of the knowledge.
- YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  25% raise over 20 years means 86 times increase in salary over a fresher. And no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. The entire industry hinges on the fact that a person would only change job 5-6 times in 20 years.
  - toyg 5y ago
    > no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. Uh, they seem to find that money just fine for execs, who are not even the ones keeping servers up, so to speak...
    - yunohn 5y ago
      This is a really important point that is always missing in these threads - execs at most companies (even at FAANG, but esp outside) make massive multiples of their average engineer.
      - Fiahil 5y ago
        5.000.000 for a single exec means 50.000 for each of the 100 "average engineers" working in their department. You can overcompensate execs because there fewer of them than engineers.
        mcv 5y ago
        But also because the exec has more power. More power over budgets, over the company, a closer relationship with the people who decide their salary, etc. We just have power over the tech, which may be vital, but it's not power we leverage very hard.
        rdtwo 5y ago
        While it may seem that way a lead engineer has more actual ability to swing outcomes than an executive. I can save or loose my company millions in a month but my exec can’t even get us 1-2 people without 3 months of paperwork. He can’t allocate more than 5k in capital without months of review. And he works 60-80hrs a week requesting status. It’s a total joke that he Gets paid 3-4x what engineers do
        mcv 5y ago
        Was that an executive or a middle manager? It sounds like the latter. But you're absolutely right that it's weird that the people who's job it is to enable engineers, get paid more than the engineers who do the actual work.
        rdtwo 5y ago
        You can’t tell the difference but he gets executive pay and title
        hn_version_0023 5y ago
        yunohn 5y ago
  - 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
    Ok. I was a bit hyperbolic. But people aren’t even moving because their current jobs value them for what they are worth. People literally jump around chasing pay increases. If you got a decent raise comparable to a job change would you jump around every couple years?
  - usrbinbash 5y ago
    They seem to have no problem finding that kind of money for execs and shareholders.
  - swiftcoder 5y ago
    > And no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience Just how many 20 year experience engineers do you think the average company has? I have a feeling you will find that the (very small number of) folks who have been at the same FAANG continuously for the past 20 years are indeed making compensation in that ballpark (we're talking Google's Senior Staff Engineer or Amazon's Distinguished Engineer level) - particularly if you take into account the massive stock price increases over that period.
- indymike 5y ago
  If I could get 30% every time I changed jobs, I'd change jobs once a month.
UncleMeat 5y ago
"Pretty hard" is an understatement. In ten years, somebody receiving a 30% raise each year sees their pay go up by a factor of nearly 14. Over a 30 year career it is a factor of 2600. Somebody starting at 50k would end their career making 130,000,000 annually.
- Retric 5y ago
  Some people do actually end up at that kind of a multiple of their initial salary. It’s not that such growth is impossible it’s just really really uncommon and generally takes regularly changing roles.
  - pc86 5y ago
    "Some people" are also born in poverty and become billionaires. Not nearly enough to make it worth talking about like it's anything but a statistical aberration.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Quite a few people do cap out in the 7 or low 8 figures though. The old “climbing the corporate ladder” adage is based on actual people even if most people never climb vary high it’s a real possibility if you actually want to make serious money. Personally, I and most developers don’t think it’s worth it which is one of the reasons why it’s not actually difficult to get started.
      - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
        > Quite a few people do cap out in the 7 or low 8 figures though. Gonna be the [citation needed] guy here again; "quite a few" is doing an awful lot of work in that sentence. According to the most recent wage statistics from 2020, there are less than 100,000 people reporting incomes of $1M or over; that alone doesn't just put you in the top 1%, it puts you in the top 0.1%. "Low 8 figures" is in the low thousands. https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020 https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020 I'm not the first person to point out that Silicon Valley (and SV-style) software engineering incomes seem to have skewed HN's idea of what "average" salaries are and I won't be the last, but I think it's really true. If you make a six figure income, you're pretty much in the top 10% of that wage statistics chart; the median income is around $30K. > Personally, I and most developers don’t think it’s worth it The number of people who started as developers and increased their salaries to that $1M+ level have got to be very, very low, and I don't think you can really imply that most developers have the opportunity to do so and simply choose not to. That kind of "engineering founder" success requires skills beyond engineering (and, as much as we sometimes like to pretend otherwise, a certain amount of good fortune).

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago

>* employers are able to give 20-30% raise each year(which is pretty hard)* Can’t be that hard if an engineer can just walk out and get that. What do you think the replacement will cost? And with none of the knowledge.

YetAnotherNick 5y ago
25% raise over 20 years means 86 times increase in salary over a fresher. And no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. The entire industry hinges on the fact that a person would only change job 5-6 times in 20 years.
- toyg 5y ago
  > no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. Uh, they seem to find that money just fine for execs, who are not even the ones keeping servers up, so to speak...
  - yunohn 5y ago
    This is a really important point that is always missing in these threads - execs at most companies (even at FAANG, but esp outside) make massive multiples of their average engineer.
    - Fiahil 5y ago
      5.000.000 for a single exec means 50.000 for each of the 100 "average engineers" working in their department. You can overcompensate execs because there fewer of them than engineers.
      - mcv 5y ago
        But also because the exec has more power. More power over budgets, over the company, a closer relationship with the people who decide their salary, etc. We just have power over the tech, which may be vital, but it's not power we leverage very hard.
        rdtwo 5y ago
        While it may seem that way a lead engineer has more actual ability to swing outcomes than an executive. I can save or loose my company millions in a month but my exec can’t even get us 1-2 people without 3 months of paperwork. He can’t allocate more than 5k in capital without months of review. And he works 60-80hrs a week requesting status. It’s a total joke that he Gets paid 3-4x what engineers do
        mcv 5y ago
        Was that an executive or a middle manager? It sounds like the latter. But you're absolutely right that it's weird that the people who's job it is to enable engineers, get paid more than the engineers who do the actual work.
        rdtwo 5y ago
        You can’t tell the difference but he gets executive pay and title
        hn_version_0023 5y ago
      - yunohn 5y ago
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  Ok. I was a bit hyperbolic. But people aren’t even moving because their current jobs value them for what they are worth. People literally jump around chasing pay increases. If you got a decent raise comparable to a job change would you jump around every couple years?
- usrbinbash 5y ago
  They seem to have no problem finding that kind of money for execs and shareholders.
- swiftcoder 5y ago
  > And no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience Just how many 20 year experience engineers do you think the average company has? I have a feeling you will find that the (very small number of) folks who have been at the same FAANG continuously for the past 20 years are indeed making compensation in that ballpark (we're talking Google's Senior Staff Engineer or Amazon's Distinguished Engineer level) - particularly if you take into account the massive stock price increases over that period.
indymike 5y ago
If I could get 30% every time I changed jobs, I'd change jobs once a month.

UncleMeat 5y ago

"Pretty hard" is an understatement. In ten years, somebody receiving a 30% raise each year sees their pay go up by a factor of nearly 14. Over a 30 year career it is a factor of 2600. Somebody starting at 50k would end their career making 130,000,000 annually.

Retric 5y ago
Some people do actually end up at that kind of a multiple of their initial salary. It’s not that such growth is impossible it’s just really really uncommon and generally takes regularly changing roles.
- pc86 5y ago
  "Some people" are also born in poverty and become billionaires. Not nearly enough to make it worth talking about like it's anything but a statistical aberration.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Quite a few people do cap out in the 7 or low 8 figures though. The old “climbing the corporate ladder” adage is based on actual people even if most people never climb vary high it’s a real possibility if you actually want to make serious money. Personally, I and most developers don’t think it’s worth it which is one of the reasons why it’s not actually difficult to get started.
    - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
      > Quite a few people do cap out in the 7 or low 8 figures though. Gonna be the [citation needed] guy here again; "quite a few" is doing an awful lot of work in that sentence. According to the most recent wage statistics from 2020, there are less than 100,000 people reporting incomes of $1M or over; that alone doesn't just put you in the top 1%, it puts you in the top 0.1%. "Low 8 figures" is in the low thousands. https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020 https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020 I'm not the first person to point out that Silicon Valley (and SV-style) software engineering incomes seem to have skewed HN's idea of what "average" salaries are and I won't be the last, but I think it's really true. If you make a six figure income, you're pretty much in the top 10% of that wage statistics chart; the median income is around $30K. > Personally, I and most developers don’t think it’s worth it The number of people who started as developers and increased their salaries to that $1M+ level have got to be very, very low, and I don't think you can really imply that most developers have the opportunity to do so and simply choose not to. That kind of "engineering founder" success requires skills beyond engineering (and, as much as we sometimes like to pretend otherwise, a certain amount of good fortune).