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That's good to know, however I was encountering this MySQL truncation just last year in COTS software, so clearly there's a long tail. As a related example, lo

That's good to know, however I was encountering this MySQL truncation just last year in COTS software, so clearly there's a long tail. As a related example, log4j 1.x has been deprecated for years, but 100% of atlassian uses it with their own maintained version. In fact, when the log4j thing came up, we audited all our existing COTS/internal and virtually all of it was still on the "EOL" log4j 1.x. Since you're familiar with this. What happens with an existing upgrade - is strict mode enabled by a typical distro package upgrade or does it only impact new installs?

evanelias 5y ago
For sure, there's a huge long tail. However, if a company is using 6+ year old EOL software that has flaws, that's outside of the vendor's control. > What happens with an existing upgrade sql_mode is a setting, so it depends on whether the default is being overridden: e.g. does the my.cnf config file specify a value explicitly? Does your application's connection logic set a session-level override for each connection? DBaaS vendors add an additional wrinkle since they tend to have custom UIs and APIs for global settings. > typical distro package upgrade Many Linux distros made it so that attempting to install "mysql" actually installs MariaDB instead, so when going this route, it's unfortunately always very hard to predict what you'll get or what will happen!
- KronisLV 5y ago
  > Many Linux distros made it so that attempting to install "mysql" actually installs MariaDB instead, so when going this route, it's unfortunately always very hard to predict what you'll get or what will happen! MariaDB is indeed pretty pleasant to use and for most use cases can be a drop in replacement for MySQL, should you not want to use MySQL, but also wouldn't want/need/be able to use PostgreSQL or something else: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ I might be in the minority here, but i actually rather enjoy MySQL/MariaDB, since MySQL Workbench is still the best DBA software that i've used, especially because of the ER modelling and schema sync functionality, and their approach to schemas/users within a DB feels more reasonable than that of Oracle/PostgreSQL. That said, both PL/SQL and PL/pgSQL feel more powerful than whatever MySQL/MariaDB has. Also, in regards to MariaDB in particular, their versions have diverged from MySQL somewhat, so you might still want to look into the differences, if migrating over: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ As for predictability - nowadays i just run specific versions in containers (e.g. 10.7.1 or maybe 10.7 which corresponds to the patest PATCH release), to sidestep the distro differences altogether. It also lets me easily launch new instances, give resource limits to them, have multiple versions in parallel and mount the data directories wherever i need them, for easier backups etc.
  - brazzledazzle 5y ago
    Same. If I'm building and managing any special instances/VMs these days I avoid installing any packages but those required to run containers. There's certainly tradeoffs but it makes software management so much easier. Upgrading is a matter of stopping and starting a container using an upgraded image and if it's supported rolling back is just a matter of stopping the newer container and restarting the old. A container hosting service/platform and it's abstractions are better but if you have to run some one offs outside of that it's so much nicer to use containers. I call these pet cattle. I still bind mount directories though. Docker volumes seem really convenient but a few years back I dealt with helping out a coworker with some data loss (pre-volumes) in a container's filesystem so I have some trust issues with how they implement storage.
    - KronisLV 5y ago
      > I still bind mount directories though. Docker volumes seem really convenient but a few years back I dealt with helping out a coworker with some data loss (pre-volumes) in a container's filesystem so I have some trust issues with how they implement storage. This mirrors my experience and despite how Docker seems to suggest that non-abstracted storage is a liability and we should use volumes instead in many cases, i disagree: https://docs.docker.com/storage/bind-mounts/ https://docs.docker.com/storage/bind-mounts/ In my eyes, the current implementation for volumes is for data that i don't really care much about, but would still consider extracting/moving later and have it be persistent, like when trying out new software. Personally, bind mounts also make it extremely easy to operate with whole installs of software - for example, should i want to upgrade something like Nextcloud (and have enough space), i can just stop the containers, make a copy at /docker/nextcloud_stack/data/nextcloud_mysql_old and run a new container version against /docker/nextcloud_stack/data/nextcloud_mysql and see if it all works. If the update has corrupted everything, i can just delete the broken folder, rename my backup and proceed with restoring the older version. If i want to mess around with the broken version, i can do it with 0 worries about what else could break. It's amazing, way better than relying on the POSIX approach to a file system, where your software, its configuration and its persistent data is all over the place. I once had to manage a Tomcat install which had the webapps, config, logs directories in their idiomatic locations rather than one folder, which was pretty horrible from a management perspective. I had to constantly jump around and wasn't entirely sure how it all fits together (probably lots of symlinks). It's curious that some/many Kubernetes distros lock down the local storage driver, though - there's a preset data directory, where all of your mounted data ends up, which feels like a step backwards from a customization perspective. I had to change the data directory for the entire Kubernetes install to be able to store my data in a painfully obvious /app or /data mount point. Then again, their ability to limit the sizes of these persistent volumes is pretty cool.
waynesonfire 5y ago
I'm going to use this as an opportunity to vent. Wouldn't it be a nice world where you can just declare something EOL and it disappears and somehow magically it's not a problem anymore for anyone end-to-end? Thing's just don't work that way. Like, suddenly, a product that was working perfectly fine for who knows how long suddenly needs to modified because some ass-hats thinks that EOL isn't suitable for production. There are a number of reasons to upgrade a dependency or a product; an EOL label shouldn't be a part of the calculus. EOL may imply certain conditions that may influence the decision to upgrade but for the sake of EOL you can eat a bag of dicks. Think harder why you're proposing an upgrade is needed and how it'll add value to the business. EOL software is perfectly fine especially because it's been battle tested. We also use log4j 1.x all over the place and I feel zero need to change that.
- dimitrios1 5y ago
  It is perfectly reasonable to continue to use EOL software, but you have to assume maintenance costs in that case. It would be irresponsible to continue to use EOL software as is. EOL is a perfectly natural concept. Nothing in this world lasts forever, including our machines, electronics, cars, batteries, lives, and yes, software.
  - rkagerer 5y ago
    If software lasted a lifetime, life would be so much easier.
    - kortex 5y ago
      For the end user, not the maintainers. Who's gonna sign up to keep that ENIAC, PDP-11, ALGOL 58, python2.3, win3.1, etc, code running, stable, and not a source of exploits? Or do you mean in the abstract, fairy-tale ending sense?
      - dimitrios1 5y ago
        I think they meant in the tongue-in-cheek sense.

evanelias 5y ago

For sure, there's a huge long tail. However, if a company is using 6+ year old EOL software that has flaws, that's outside of the vendor's control. > What happens with an existing upgrade sql_mode is a setting, so it depends on whether the default is being overridden: e.g. does the my.cnf config file specify a value explicitly? Does your application's connection logic set a session-level override for each connection? DBaaS vendors add an additional wrinkle since they tend to have custom UIs and APIs for global settings. > typical distro package upgrade Many Linux distros made it so that attempting to install "mysql" actually installs MariaDB instead, so when going this route, it's unfortunately always very hard to predict what you'll get or what will happen!

KronisLV 5y ago
> Many Linux distros made it so that attempting to install "mysql" actually installs MariaDB instead, so when going this route, it's unfortunately always very hard to predict what you'll get or what will happen! MariaDB is indeed pretty pleasant to use and for most use cases can be a drop in replacement for MySQL, should you not want to use MySQL, but also wouldn't want/need/be able to use PostgreSQL or something else: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ I might be in the minority here, but i actually rather enjoy MySQL/MariaDB, since MySQL Workbench is still the best DBA software that i've used, especially because of the ER modelling and schema sync functionality, and their approach to schemas/users within a DB feels more reasonable than that of Oracle/PostgreSQL. That said, both PL/SQL and PL/pgSQL feel more powerful than whatever MySQL/MariaDB has. Also, in regards to MariaDB in particular, their versions have diverged from MySQL somewhat, so you might still want to look into the differences, if migrating over: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ As for predictability - nowadays i just run specific versions in containers (e.g. 10.7.1 or maybe 10.7 which corresponds to the patest PATCH release), to sidestep the distro differences altogether. It also lets me easily launch new instances, give resource limits to them, have multiple versions in parallel and mount the data directories wherever i need them, for easier backups etc.
- brazzledazzle 5y ago
  Same. If I'm building and managing any special instances/VMs these days I avoid installing any packages but those required to run containers. There's certainly tradeoffs but it makes software management so much easier. Upgrading is a matter of stopping and starting a container using an upgraded image and if it's supported rolling back is just a matter of stopping the newer container and restarting the old. A container hosting service/platform and it's abstractions are better but if you have to run some one offs outside of that it's so much nicer to use containers. I call these pet cattle. I still bind mount directories though. Docker volumes seem really convenient but a few years back I dealt with helping out a coworker with some data loss (pre-volumes) in a container's filesystem so I have some trust issues with how they implement storage.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    > I still bind mount directories though. Docker volumes seem really convenient but a few years back I dealt with helping out a coworker with some data loss (pre-volumes) in a container's filesystem so I have some trust issues with how they implement storage. This mirrors my experience and despite how Docker seems to suggest that non-abstracted storage is a liability and we should use volumes instead in many cases, i disagree: https://docs.docker.com/storage/bind-mounts/ https://docs.docker.com/storage/bind-mounts/ In my eyes, the current implementation for volumes is for data that i don't really care much about, but would still consider extracting/moving later and have it be persistent, like when trying out new software. Personally, bind mounts also make it extremely easy to operate with whole installs of software - for example, should i want to upgrade something like Nextcloud (and have enough space), i can just stop the containers, make a copy at /docker/nextcloud_stack/data/nextcloud_mysql_old and run a new container version against /docker/nextcloud_stack/data/nextcloud_mysql and see if it all works. If the update has corrupted everything, i can just delete the broken folder, rename my backup and proceed with restoring the older version. If i want to mess around with the broken version, i can do it with 0 worries about what else could break. It's amazing, way better than relying on the POSIX approach to a file system, where your software, its configuration and its persistent data is all over the place. I once had to manage a Tomcat install which had the webapps, config, logs directories in their idiomatic locations rather than one folder, which was pretty horrible from a management perspective. I had to constantly jump around and wasn't entirely sure how it all fits together (probably lots of symlinks). It's curious that some/many Kubernetes distros lock down the local storage driver, though - there's a preset data directory, where all of your mounted data ends up, which feels like a step backwards from a customization perspective. I had to change the data directory for the entire Kubernetes install to be able to store my data in a painfully obvious /app or /data mount point. Then again, their ability to limit the sizes of these persistent volumes is pretty cool.

waynesonfire 5y ago

I'm going to use this as an opportunity to vent. Wouldn't it be a nice world where you can just declare something EOL and it disappears and somehow magically it's not a problem anymore for anyone end-to-end? Thing's just don't work that way. Like, suddenly, a product that was working perfectly fine for who knows how long suddenly needs to modified because some ass-hats thinks that EOL isn't suitable for production. There are a number of reasons to upgrade a dependency or a product; an EOL label shouldn't be a part of the calculus. EOL may imply certain conditions that may influence the decision to upgrade but for the sake of EOL you can eat a bag of dicks. Think harder why you're proposing an upgrade is needed and how it'll add value to the business. EOL software is perfectly fine especially because it's been battle tested. We also use log4j 1.x all over the place and I feel zero need to change that.

dimitrios1 5y ago
It is perfectly reasonable to continue to use EOL software, but you have to assume maintenance costs in that case. It would be irresponsible to continue to use EOL software as is. EOL is a perfectly natural concept. Nothing in this world lasts forever, including our machines, electronics, cars, batteries, lives, and yes, software.
- rkagerer 5y ago
  If software lasted a lifetime, life would be so much easier.
  - kortex 5y ago
    For the end user, not the maintainers. Who's gonna sign up to keep that ENIAC, PDP-11, ALGOL 58, python2.3, win3.1, etc, code running, stable, and not a source of exploits? Or do you mean in the abstract, fairy-tale ending sense?
    - dimitrios1 5y ago
      I think they meant in the tongue-in-cheek sense.