6 ms·

I believe we should focus on separating criminals from non-criminals instead of punishing and torturing them. Give them an environment where they can thrive wit

I believe we should focus on separating criminals from non-criminals instead of punishing and torturing them. Give them an environment where they can thrive without being harmful to themselves and others. Let them re-join the society ONLY when they pose acceptable risk. This means violent criminals may never get to re-join the society, but that's okay given that they are still given a humane environment where they can stay healthy and thrive.

watwut 5y ago
Basically, you suggest even longer sentences in country that already leads incarceration rates worldwide.
cm2012 5y ago
Sounds like a pretty good compromise for public safety
quacked 5y ago
I agree with you, I just think it would take a lot more money and effort to provide this environment.
- serverholic 5y ago
  Ending the war on drugs would open up some room
mnw21cam 5y ago
Isn't that basically how Australia was populated?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Australia was populated long before that. 100k or so convicts shipped over a century probably means fewer than 50k shipped-convict population at once, compared to an 800k aboriginal population (plus or minus a lot).
AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
so... what do we do with non-criminals? All the small things like bike theft, not paying child support, fare evasion and urinating in the streets? For extra credit: assume the offender has no money.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  Whoa. Are you defending putting these people in jail with murderers and gang members?
  - AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
    I do not. But what are the alternatives? Spanking?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dwohnitmok 5y ago
      > Spanking? Some countries essentially do this (e.g. caning in Singapore).
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        Don't you, at least in Singapore, get caning in addition to a prison sentence?
        AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
        TIL: In Singapore parents can declare their children "beyond parental control". From that point the government will take care of their behavior. [1] https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-is-a-beyond-parental-control-order/ https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-is-a-beyo...
        dwohnitmok 5y ago
lapsedacademic 5y ago
Penal colonies and other forms of exile are cruel and unusual. It's hard to conceive because this form of punishment has been disused in the west for nearly as long as drawing and quartering, but historical use of exile gives a sense for how extreme permanent exile is as a punishment. Even in the age of drawing and quartering, penal colonies were used primarily as an alternative to capital punishment. In the age of gruesome physical torture, exile was used primarily an alternative to execution.
- simmanian 5y ago
  I think the key difference is I'm focusing on allowing people to live with others they can synergize well with. I oppose the focus on punishing (torturing) criminals. I do not believe we should permanently exile all violent criminals into wilderness. I believe they should live in a safe and healthy environment where they can thrive. We shouldn't let someone who's likely to murder people out on the streets with no help to get them reintegrated just because they did their time. At the same time, there's no reason we should keep someone locked up when they have truly changed. Give criminals a healthy environment where they can thrive and even be happy. Give criminals a chance to join back when they really want to.
  - lapsedacademic 5y ago
    That's all reasonable, but a bit utopian. There are tons of serious pragmatic issues with your suggestions, as well as serious political questions about how to convince people to implement them.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Maintaining a sufficient level of physical security to reliably confine violent criminals while also giving them a safe and healthy environment where they can thrive would be extremely expensive. It sounds great in theory, but most citizens wouldn't be willing to pay more taxes for it. (And yes I'm aware we could find the necessary funds by slashing military spending but realistically that's not going to happen.)
    - 5y ago
ddoolin 5y ago
I'm classified as a "violent criminal" by the state by way of having a violent felony. Not trying to be inflammatory, but this sounds like awful idea, mostly psychological and societal at large. In my experience, many, many people have this "us vs. them" attitude towards criminals, as in "I would never commit a crime so therefore they are not like us." The reality is, countless people are either innocent or one-time offenders (or others who likely do not "deserve" exile). Further division along further boundaries is probably not what we need, especially one which is nearly certain to be universally looked down upon. So, IMO, resources would be much better spent improving what we have (a lot), making sure justice & sentencing is fair and consistent, and certainly doing a much better job of post-incarceration support, community, and monitoring. I would wager that many, many more people can be helped out of their circumstances than are currently, but prisoners are almost dropped entirely once they're released.
- simmanian 5y ago
  Thank you for sharing. I personally view "violent criminals" as regular human beings and believe we should stop classifying people as violent criminals the moment they no longer pose significant danger to others. But maybe you're right in seeing that most don't share these views. Regardless, what I'm trying to say is ALL people deserve to organize themselves in ways that lead to safe, healthy, and happy lives. We should not torture people for decades for murdering others. Rather, let them live in a way that allows them to thrive while protecting the rest from getting harmed.
  - _moof 5y ago
    I get where you're coming from but realize that you're advocating for indefinite sentences, which are inhumane, combined with a board of fallible, perversely incentivized people who will determine who is rehabilitated and who isn't. The board will presumably be subject to the will of a sadistic, vengeful public who have cartoonish beliefs about a system they have no direct knowledge of, and who completely fail to understand even the most basic rights afforded under the constitution. (Go look at just about any tweet about the fifth amendment.) It sounds great on paper but the second real people get involved, it becomes a humans rights disaster.
eurasiantiger 5y ago
That is the Judge Dredd world.

watwut 5y ago

Basically, you suggest even longer sentences in country that already leads incarceration rates worldwide.

cm2012 5y ago

Sounds like a pretty good compromise for public safety

quacked 5y ago

I agree with you, I just think it would take a lot more money and effort to provide this environment.

serverholic 5y ago
Ending the war on drugs would open up some room

mnw21cam 5y ago

Isn't that basically how Australia was populated?

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Australia was populated long before that. 100k or so convicts shipped over a century probably means fewer than 50k shipped-convict population at once, compared to an 800k aboriginal population (plus or minus a lot).

AlexTWithBeard 5y ago

so... what do we do with non-criminals? All the small things like bike theft, not paying child support, fare evasion and urinating in the streets? For extra credit: assume the offender has no money.

Ensorceled 5y ago
Whoa. Are you defending putting these people in jail with murderers and gang members?
- AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
  I do not. But what are the alternatives? Spanking?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dwohnitmok 5y ago
    > Spanking? Some countries essentially do this (e.g. caning in Singapore).
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Don't you, at least in Singapore, get caning in addition to a prison sentence?
      - AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
        TIL: In Singapore parents can declare their children "beyond parental control". From that point the government will take care of their behavior. [1] https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-is-a-beyond-parental-control-order/ https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-is-a-beyo...
      - dwohnitmok 5y ago

lapsedacademic 5y ago

Penal colonies and other forms of exile are cruel and unusual. It's hard to conceive because this form of punishment has been disused in the west for nearly as long as drawing and quartering, but historical use of exile gives a sense for how extreme permanent exile is as a punishment. Even in the age of drawing and quartering, penal colonies were used primarily as an alternative to capital punishment. In the age of gruesome physical torture, exile was used primarily an alternative to execution.

simmanian 5y ago
I think the key difference is I'm focusing on allowing people to live with others they can synergize well with. I oppose the focus on punishing (torturing) criminals. I do not believe we should permanently exile all violent criminals into wilderness. I believe they should live in a safe and healthy environment where they can thrive. We shouldn't let someone who's likely to murder people out on the streets with no help to get them reintegrated just because they did their time. At the same time, there's no reason we should keep someone locked up when they have truly changed. Give criminals a healthy environment where they can thrive and even be happy. Give criminals a chance to join back when they really want to.
- lapsedacademic 5y ago
  That's all reasonable, but a bit utopian. There are tons of serious pragmatic issues with your suggestions, as well as serious political questions about how to convince people to implement them.
- nradov 5y ago
  Maintaining a sufficient level of physical security to reliably confine violent criminals while also giving them a safe and healthy environment where they can thrive would be extremely expensive. It sounds great in theory, but most citizens wouldn't be willing to pay more taxes for it. (And yes I'm aware we could find the necessary funds by slashing military spending but realistically that's not going to happen.)
  - 5y ago

ddoolin 5y ago

I'm classified as a "violent criminal" by the state by way of having a violent felony. Not trying to be inflammatory, but this sounds like awful idea, mostly psychological and societal at large. In my experience, many, many people have this "us vs. them" attitude towards criminals, as in "I would never commit a crime so therefore they are not like us." The reality is, countless people are either innocent or one-time offenders (or others who likely do not "deserve" exile). Further division along further boundaries is probably not what we need, especially one which is nearly certain to be universally looked down upon. So, IMO, resources would be much better spent improving what we have (a lot), making sure justice & sentencing is fair and consistent, and certainly doing a much better job of post-incarceration support, community, and monitoring. I would wager that many, many more people can be helped out of their circumstances than are currently, but prisoners are almost dropped entirely once they're released.

simmanian 5y ago
Thank you for sharing. I personally view "violent criminals" as regular human beings and believe we should stop classifying people as violent criminals the moment they no longer pose significant danger to others. But maybe you're right in seeing that most don't share these views. Regardless, what I'm trying to say is ALL people deserve to organize themselves in ways that lead to safe, healthy, and happy lives. We should not torture people for decades for murdering others. Rather, let them live in a way that allows them to thrive while protecting the rest from getting harmed.
- _moof 5y ago
  I get where you're coming from but realize that you're advocating for indefinite sentences, which are inhumane, combined with a board of fallible, perversely incentivized people who will determine who is rehabilitated and who isn't. The board will presumably be subject to the will of a sadistic, vengeful public who have cartoonish beliefs about a system they have no direct knowledge of, and who completely fail to understand even the most basic rights afforded under the constitution. (Go look at just about any tweet about the fifth amendment.) It sounds great on paper but the second real people get involved, it becomes a humans rights disaster.

eurasiantiger 5y ago

That is the Judge Dredd world.