6 ms·

I’m amazed at the number of people I see wearing N95s or KN95s with a clear gap at the top. Why bother?

by dpark 5y ago

kube-system 5y ago
I have a collection of various 94+% masks that I amassed towards the beginning of the pandemic. About 6 or 7 types. Only 1 of them doesn’t fog my glasses in the winter (and it’s a freakin Honeywell respirator) That means all of the others are leaking, even when I wear them “properly”
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Water vapor is a lot smaller than viral particles and is likely to pass through even a N95 mask, which is good, as you'd drown pretty quickly if it didn't. I wouldn't read too much into fogging. (That said, I do wish there were better options for people with giant noses like mine.)
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I mean, they’re fogging because the top of the mask leaks, and the breath takes the path of least resistance and goes around rather than out of the mask.
    - jrockway 5y ago
      Yup, exactly. I use my glasses to seal the top. It's weird but it works.
    - mindslight 5y ago
      Likely, but not necessarily. My silicone half-face (with disabled check valves) slightly fogs my glasses because enough water vapor is leaving the filter close to my glasses. I'm sure it's not leaking, because I can feel the silicone pull away from my face when it does.
  - Trav5 5y ago
    For me, fogging my glasses means I have a leak and the air is being forced out gaps around my nose. Maybe under extreme weather conditions a perfect fit would still fog, but that's not what the op is talking about.
  - jakemoshenko 5y ago
    I think it's more about the direction of the water vapor than the fact that the masks can pass vapor. If there was no leakage one might expect vapor to leave through the mask uniformly or in the same pattern as it did without masking (e.g. mostly forward.)
- p1mrx 5y ago
  I used to shave and use medical tape to seal KN95 masks around my nose. Since the vaccine came out, I don't bother anymore.
distances 5y ago
By my own very much baseless estimation of people wearing FFP2 in Germany: about 10% have their noses out, 60% have the mask completely unfitted, and 30% have at least tried to fit it.
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> I’m amazed at the number of people I see wearing N95s or KN95s with a clear gap at the top. Why bother? Uncharitably: People think it's a magical talisman; wear this mask and be protected. There's no grasp of the mechanism, so "wearing" the mask can be arbitrary. Charitably: If people grasp how masks work, it's easy to forget, or not think of it, or not check that it's (still) on correctly. (Bluntly, I think the former option more likely, but I try to think of charitable options)
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  I have a KN95. I can't get it to fit on the top. Always fogs my glasses. But when I breathe in, I can clearly see by the fabric's motion that air is substantially being pulled through the material rather than around it (edit: or that might just be pressure differential). In any case, we are talking about mitigation of risk, minimization of exposure. If my mask is only filtering 80% of the air at 95%, that still a lot fewer viral particles I'm exposing myself to than otherwise. I don't think that its a matter of whether 1 viral particle gets through, but how many that determines likelihood of an infection or serious illness. And its effectiveness is backed up by studies of unfitted 95s.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Depends on degree; I was thinking of people who aren't even covering their noses when I wrote my comment. Good point, though; I hadn't thought of "physically doesn't fit".
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > I have a KN95. I can't get it to fit on the top. Always fogs my glasses. But when I breathe in, I can clearly see by the fabric's motion that air is substantially being pulled through the material rather than around it. IIRC, KN95s were designed for flatter, asian noses. I think I read somewhere that one of the motivating factors for the design was that it's harder for asians to get a good fit with some types of N95, because they were designed for caucasian noses. I have a big nose, so KN95s never work for me, unless I retrofit a really long and beefy metal strip for the nose.
rob74 5y ago
Those are mostly the people just wearing a mask because they have to. Personally my thinking is "the mask mandate is here for a reason, and if I have to wear a mask anyway, I might as well wear it so it actually protects me", but even I have "misadjusted" an FFP2 mask for better ventilation when sitting in a 90% empty train on a hot day...
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
There is simply no system for random joe to find masks that fit them. Suppose you buy a mask and it doesn't fit, what do you do, but random ones untill uou find one that works? They have no categorisation, even if you find one, often you cant but it again as shops change their stock randomly. Also sometimes you buy a FP2 mask and if turns out it's not https://www.pcgamer.com/razer-rows-back-after-zephyr-face-mask-safety-rating-confusion/ https://www.pcgamer.com/razer-rows-back-after-zephyr-face-ma...
- dpark 5y ago
  I’m not talking about “poor fit”. I’m talking about a significant visible gap. As in I could probably put my pinkie between the mask and their face. I see this a lot and while I understand fitting masks can be hard, this it’s hard to explain like that.
fuzzy2 5y ago
This is sometimes an “optical illusion”. Good masks have a metal sheet there that you can bend to fit your nose. However, when you bend it, the outer cloth of the sheet pocket will not follow the curves as tightly, if at all. It appears as if the wearer had not attempted to bend the metal sheet at all.
- dpark 5y ago
  I’m not sure what this means. The use of an N95 or equivalent provides value only when rightly fitting. It sounds like you’re describing a mask that gaps no matter how it’s fitted. A lot of the people I see like this seem to have bent the nose piece so tight that it’s actually lifting the top edge off their faces (because the nose cannot fit in the tiny space created). I’m not sure if they think the absurdly tight nose piece is sealing better or if they are intentionally doing this to make it more “breathable”.
  - fuzzy2 5y ago
    No. I’m saying that you cannot look below the mask around the nose to see whether there are gaps. The outer cloth is not an accurate indicator. The too-tight nose piece is probably because that’s how the masks are packaged.
    - dpark 5y ago
      > The outer cloth is not an accurate indicator. Ah, I see what you mean. I’m pretty sure that I’m not seeing an illusion most of the time, because I’m not looking at the cloth. I’m looking at the very visible skin beneath the gap. But it makes sense that the outer layer of cloth could be misleading. > The too-tight nose piece is probably because that’s how the masks are packaged. You’re probably right. I normally see this on the center-folded masks. This would mean that people are just throwing on the mask without fitting rather than doing an astonishing bad job at attempting to fit, or intentionally fitting to create a space. That’s certainly more understandable.
alchemism 5y ago
Humans learn quickest through mimeses (imitation of what they see). That is why airplane flights start with a certain ritual demonstration.
nradov 5y ago
Why bother? In order to avoid punishment in places with mask mandates.
- dpark 5y ago
  Most places are not mandating N95-equivalent masks. Certainly they are not in Seattle, where I live.
  - yonaguska 5y ago
    Rumors are that CDC might start recommending them. Which means states will follow suit. Anything to make it seem like they're doing something.
    - dpark 5y ago
      It could certainly happen. I hope not. We’re gonna see a lot of wasted n95s if so. Few people know how to fit them and a whole lot of people have beards.
  - xigoi 5y ago
    Here in Czechia they're mandatory in public buildings.
hellomyguys 5y ago
They're still more effective than a surgical mask, even with a gap.
- dpark 5y ago
  Are they? If most air is coming around the edges I’d expect that whether the mask is woven cloth, surgical, n95, or solid plastic just doesn’t matter much.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    I'd have thought it's pretty straightforwardly a case that effectiveness is capped at the percentage that comes through the material; so as long as some is, a better material will do a bit better. For sake of argument if you're getting 80% effectiveness from a perfect fit, that's 40% if 50% air comes around the sides, and better than an alternative that's 20% effective however well it fits. (All made-up round numbers.)
    - trulyme 5y ago
      Is it possible that "worse" masks actually perform better in this case, because more air actually passes through the material instead of through gaps? Not advising to use flimsy masks of course, just wondering.
    - dpark 5y ago
      I’m not sure if it is or not. It’s something I’d actually like to understand. I would imagine that if there’s a significant gap, most air would actually bypass the mask entirely. And “significant” here is still fairly small. I’m thinking you only need a cross section as large as your nostrils for most air to flow around the mask. And as you make the mask less breathable/more resistive, more air will bypass the mask. But I don’t know how accurate my assumptions are.
Enginerrrd 5y ago
I mean, sometimes people don't really care and they have to just adhere to the rules. (Some of those people have already had covid and the vaccines and are at such low risk of spreading it or catching it, the reduction in risk posed by the mask is negligible.) People in the trades, or with similar hobbies tend to have them lying around. Plenty of times I've just grabbed a used up N95 dust mask I had lying in the truck because I had to run to the hardware store really quick and I forgot my more comfortable mask. More often, it's probably just a lack of training / reading the instructions on how to press-fit the nose bridge. Then there's people like me with weird faces that fail fit tests no matter how careful with basically everything except the duck masks.
OJFord 5y ago
It's the nose peeking over that gets me. I've worn an FFP3 throughout, don't see the point in cloth or surgical masks. (With my nose firmly inside...)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

I’m amazed at the number of people I see wearing N95s or KN95s with a clear gap at the top. Why bother?

by dpark 5y ago

I’m amazed at the number of people I see wearing N95s or KN95s with a clear gap at the top. Why bother?

I have a collection of various 94+% masks that I amassed towards the beginning of the pandemic. About 6 or 7 types. Only 1 of them doesn’t fog my glasses in the winter (and it’s a freakin Honeywell respirator) That means all of the others are leaking, even when I wear them “properly”

ceejayoz 5y ago
Water vapor is a lot smaller than viral particles and is likely to pass through even a N95 mask, which is good, as you'd drown pretty quickly if it didn't. I wouldn't read too much into fogging. (That said, I do wish there were better options for people with giant noses like mine.)
- kube-system 5y ago
  I mean, they’re fogging because the top of the mask leaks, and the breath takes the path of least resistance and goes around rather than out of the mask.
  - jrockway 5y ago
    Yup, exactly. I use my glasses to seal the top. It's weird but it works.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Likely, but not necessarily. My silicone half-face (with disabled check valves) slightly fogs my glasses because enough water vapor is leaving the filter close to my glasses. I'm sure it's not leaking, because I can feel the silicone pull away from my face when it does.
- Trav5 5y ago
  For me, fogging my glasses means I have a leak and the air is being forced out gaps around my nose. Maybe under extreme weather conditions a perfect fit would still fog, but that's not what the op is talking about.
- jakemoshenko 5y ago
  I think it's more about the direction of the water vapor than the fact that the masks can pass vapor. If there was no leakage one might expect vapor to leave through the mask uniformly or in the same pattern as it did without masking (e.g. mostly forward.)
p1mrx 5y ago
I used to shave and use medical tape to seal KN95 masks around my nose. Since the vaccine came out, I don't bother anymore.

distances 5y ago

By my own very much baseless estimation of people wearing FFP2 in Germany: about 10% have their noses out, 60% have the mask completely unfitted, and 30% have at least tried to fit it.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

> I’m amazed at the number of people I see wearing N95s or KN95s with a clear gap at the top. Why bother? Uncharitably: People think it's a magical talisman; wear this mask and be protected. There's no grasp of the mechanism, so "wearing" the mask can be arbitrary. Charitably: If people grasp how masks work, it's easy to forget, or not think of it, or not check that it's (still) on correctly. (Bluntly, I think the former option more likely, but I try to think of charitable options)

jonnycomputer 5y ago
I have a KN95. I can't get it to fit on the top. Always fogs my glasses. But when I breathe in, I can clearly see by the fabric's motion that air is substantially being pulled through the material rather than around it (edit: or that might just be pressure differential). In any case, we are talking about mitigation of risk, minimization of exposure. If my mask is only filtering 80% of the air at 95%, that still a lot fewer viral particles I'm exposing myself to than otherwise. I don't think that its a matter of whether 1 viral particle gets through, but how many that determines likelihood of an infection or serious illness. And its effectiveness is backed up by studies of unfitted 95s.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Depends on degree; I was thinking of people who aren't even covering their noses when I wrote my comment. Good point, though; I hadn't thought of "physically doesn't fit".
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > I have a KN95. I can't get it to fit on the top. Always fogs my glasses. But when I breathe in, I can clearly see by the fabric's motion that air is substantially being pulled through the material rather than around it. IIRC, KN95s were designed for flatter, asian noses. I think I read somewhere that one of the motivating factors for the design was that it's harder for asians to get a good fit with some types of N95, because they were designed for caucasian noses. I have a big nose, so KN95s never work for me, unless I retrofit a really long and beefy metal strip for the nose.

rob74 5y ago

Those are mostly the people just wearing a mask because they have to. Personally my thinking is "the mask mandate is here for a reason, and if I have to wear a mask anyway, I might as well wear it so it actually protects me", but even I have "misadjusted" an FFP2 mask for better ventilation when sitting in a 90% empty train on a hot day...

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

There is simply no system for random joe to find masks that fit them. Suppose you buy a mask and it doesn't fit, what do you do, but random ones untill uou find one that works? They have no categorisation, even if you find one, often you cant but it again as shops change their stock randomly. Also sometimes you buy a FP2 mask and if turns out it's not https://www.pcgamer.com/razer-rows-back-after-zephyr-face-mask-safety-rating-confusion/ https://www.pcgamer.com/razer-rows-back-after-zephyr-face-ma...

dpark 5y ago
I’m not talking about “poor fit”. I’m talking about a significant visible gap. As in I could probably put my pinkie between the mask and their face. I see this a lot and while I understand fitting masks can be hard, this it’s hard to explain like that.

fuzzy2 5y ago

This is sometimes an “optical illusion”. Good masks have a metal sheet there that you can bend to fit your nose. However, when you bend it, the outer cloth of the sheet pocket will not follow the curves as tightly, if at all. It appears as if the wearer had not attempted to bend the metal sheet at all.

dpark 5y ago
I’m not sure what this means. The use of an N95 or equivalent provides value only when rightly fitting. It sounds like you’re describing a mask that gaps no matter how it’s fitted. A lot of the people I see like this seem to have bent the nose piece so tight that it’s actually lifting the top edge off their faces (because the nose cannot fit in the tiny space created). I’m not sure if they think the absurdly tight nose piece is sealing better or if they are intentionally doing this to make it more “breathable”.
- fuzzy2 5y ago
  No. I’m saying that you cannot look below the mask around the nose to see whether there are gaps. The outer cloth is not an accurate indicator. The too-tight nose piece is probably because that’s how the masks are packaged.
  - dpark 5y ago
    > The outer cloth is not an accurate indicator. Ah, I see what you mean. I’m pretty sure that I’m not seeing an illusion most of the time, because I’m not looking at the cloth. I’m looking at the very visible skin beneath the gap. But it makes sense that the outer layer of cloth could be misleading. > The too-tight nose piece is probably because that’s how the masks are packaged. You’re probably right. I normally see this on the center-folded masks. This would mean that people are just throwing on the mask without fitting rather than doing an astonishing bad job at attempting to fit, or intentionally fitting to create a space. That’s certainly more understandable.

alchemism 5y ago

Humans learn quickest through mimeses (imitation of what they see). That is why airplane flights start with a certain ritual demonstration.

nradov 5y ago

Why bother? In order to avoid punishment in places with mask mandates.

dpark 5y ago
Most places are not mandating N95-equivalent masks. Certainly they are not in Seattle, where I live.
- yonaguska 5y ago
  Rumors are that CDC might start recommending them. Which means states will follow suit. Anything to make it seem like they're doing something.
  - dpark 5y ago
    It could certainly happen. I hope not. We’re gonna see a lot of wasted n95s if so. Few people know how to fit them and a whole lot of people have beards.
- xigoi 5y ago
  Here in Czechia they're mandatory in public buildings.

hellomyguys 5y ago

They're still more effective than a surgical mask, even with a gap.

dpark 5y ago
Are they? If most air is coming around the edges I’d expect that whether the mask is woven cloth, surgical, n95, or solid plastic just doesn’t matter much.
- OJFord 5y ago
  I'd have thought it's pretty straightforwardly a case that effectiveness is capped at the percentage that comes through the material; so as long as some is, a better material will do a bit better. For sake of argument if you're getting 80% effectiveness from a perfect fit, that's 40% if 50% air comes around the sides, and better than an alternative that's 20% effective however well it fits. (All made-up round numbers.)
  - trulyme 5y ago
    Is it possible that "worse" masks actually perform better in this case, because more air actually passes through the material instead of through gaps? Not advising to use flimsy masks of course, just wondering.
  - dpark 5y ago
    I’m not sure if it is or not. It’s something I’d actually like to understand. I would imagine that if there’s a significant gap, most air would actually bypass the mask entirely. And “significant” here is still fairly small. I’m thinking you only need a cross section as large as your nostrils for most air to flow around the mask. And as you make the mask less breathable/more resistive, more air will bypass the mask. But I don’t know how accurate my assumptions are.

Enginerrrd 5y ago

I mean, sometimes people don't really care and they have to just adhere to the rules. (Some of those people have already had covid and the vaccines and are at such low risk of spreading it or catching it, the reduction in risk posed by the mask is negligible.) People in the trades, or with similar hobbies tend to have them lying around. Plenty of times I've just grabbed a used up N95 dust mask I had lying in the truck because I had to run to the hardware store really quick and I forgot my more comfortable mask. More often, it's probably just a lack of training / reading the instructions on how to press-fit the nose bridge. Then there's people like me with weird faces that fail fit tests no matter how careful with basically everything except the duck masks.

OJFord 5y ago

It's the nose peeking over that gets me. I've worn an FFP3 throughout, don't see the point in cloth or surgical masks. (With my nose firmly inside...)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]