5 ms·

Trump is irrelevant here, in fact I believe a lot of people voting for him out of spite because they felt they had been lied to by the other party. You will not

Trump is irrelevant here, in fact I believe a lot of people voting for him out of spite because they felt they had been lied to by the other party. You will not improve the situation with more paternalism. That is has degraded to "owning the libs" is a predictable result. Yes, people jump to conclusion, but if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. Others will hit the breaks if no conclusive information is available. Trump is not an excuse to withhold information at all. You have to make sure that the uncertainty of the information is clearly communicated. > we shouldn’t be too hasty to judge. You do judge yourself at the time you withhold information because you declared people incapable to making the same judgement.

KingOfCoders 5y ago
- Tenoke 5y ago
  This is the kind of extremely simplistic view one holds if they only get their news via The Daily Show or are in a massive echo chamber that tells them their opponents are cartoon villains. Such events are rarely so conveniently mono-causal and it should be easy to disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics, Asian and other ethnicities).
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    First of, using "they" and "simplistic view" in one sentence doesn't work, because it makes a generalized simplistic argument while using itself. "disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given" How does "Millions of white Trumps voters are racist" contradict "that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics [...]"? First it assumes Hispanics can't be racists - everyone can be a racist, racism isn't a "white" thing. Second those Hispanics also want a 50s America with wealth, a good job, traditional values and a future. That was the reason many of them or their parents came to the US (if they haven't been conquered during the expansion of the US to the west, e.g. in the Mexican-American war of conquest). And the most ardent fighters against immigration are those who immigrated last. Trump is a sexists but more women voted for Trump. Of course things are not mono causal, but than what is? There is not one reason the Earth goes around the sun exactly in the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity as a thing. Or the apple falls down the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity. The US enjoyed a boom for various reasons in the 50s and on average people in the US became (or perceived themselves) poorer since then - also for various reasons. People want the 50s back with neat houses, nice cars and a life time job from General Motors. Todays world is complicated and the reasons for why the US and other countries are in the state they are is complicated. And the 50s in the mind of many people was nice and simple. But for Trump voters it boils down to the rise of black people and hispanics(as can be seen in spike of growth in resentment after Obama became president and millions felt they are ruled by a black person now, e.g. see spike in militia groups). Instead of understanding the reasons for the downfall in (perceived) wealth it boils down to a zero sum game where "what other people get, I don't have". The fall of the American empire since 1990 has accelerated this believe and has lead to Trumps "make America great again". I'm with Forrest Gump, “Stupid is as stupid does". Not about what people think or how they see themselves. Were 1933 Germans racist? Götz Aly has shown ("Der Volksstaat") that Germans profited a lot from Hitler materially, so were they racists or just opportunists? Racists explain the world in races and declare themselves victims of another race (Jews, Blacks, Tutsi, ...). Racist people very seldom see themselves as racist. People become racists when they think they are unfairly treated compared to others and when they get into dire economic circumstances.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      It's even simpler than actual racism: quite a few people believe that they are intrinsically 'better' along some dimension (virtue, way of life, religion, skin color, whatever) and that the 'others' are worth less or are even sub-human on account of this. Racism is mostly an expression of one of those factors. This perfectly explains why division happens on the basis of an 'in' group and an 'out' group and why the solutions (for want of a better word) aimed at the outgroup start with deportation and end with gas chambers: they're lesser humans or not even humans at all in the eyes of the perpetrators. The fact that skin color is so easily determined obviously makes it a perfect candidate.
      - raxxorrax 5y ago
        But you have chosen that line arbitrarily. You can have groups that separate along decisions. Some select way A, some select way B. The same group dynamics apply. Agreed that skin color is a good candidate, but it was not required in the case of gas chambers for example. As an outsider looking towards the US, I wouldn't say conservatives started with this discrimination and it is far more a product of academia that might have removed itself from common problems of people they also like to make fun off because they are insecure about themselves.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Sorry, I don't believe this story at all. I believe this is a story people tell themselves to feel better about "the others". The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. On the other side justification was made up for real institutional discrimination against white people with the same lies that spawned accusations like this. But that wasn't to combat racism, it was to satisfy egoistical vanity and weak characters. I belong to a minority and I feel pressured to state this whenever I engage with people that bring forward such ideas and that is not a mistake. Back to reality: People never cared much about race. There are some exceptions to this and there is still prejudice against certain minorities. But I firmly believe your characterization doesn't understand the perspective of Trump supporters very well.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    "The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary." There are hundreds of interviews with Trump supporters or Brexiteers that say exactly what I have said. So how you arrive at "have seen no evidence" is astonishing to me. There are election posters for Brexit that are racist. There are books about the topic of people in the UK wantig the Empire back for its racism. "Back to reality: People never cared much about race." Ah yes, Ruanda never happened. Or thousands of pogroms. Or the thousands of public hangings in the South of the US. "People do not care about race."
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      This is getting off topic fast. I disagree, I believe a large part of the opposition you declare racist is not. Reactionary might make sense and it is very closely related to how information was handled here.
randomsearch 5y ago
> if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. If you want to build a society of trust, you need a sane president.

KingOfCoders 5y ago

Tenoke 5y ago
This is the kind of extremely simplistic view one holds if they only get their news via The Daily Show or are in a massive echo chamber that tells them their opponents are cartoon villains. Such events are rarely so conveniently mono-causal and it should be easy to disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics, Asian and other ethnicities).
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  First of, using "they" and "simplistic view" in one sentence doesn't work, because it makes a generalized simplistic argument while using itself. "disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given" How does "Millions of white Trumps voters are racist" contradict "that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics [...]"? First it assumes Hispanics can't be racists - everyone can be a racist, racism isn't a "white" thing. Second those Hispanics also want a 50s America with wealth, a good job, traditional values and a future. That was the reason many of them or their parents came to the US (if they haven't been conquered during the expansion of the US to the west, e.g. in the Mexican-American war of conquest). And the most ardent fighters against immigration are those who immigrated last. Trump is a sexists but more women voted for Trump. Of course things are not mono causal, but than what is? There is not one reason the Earth goes around the sun exactly in the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity as a thing. Or the apple falls down the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity. The US enjoyed a boom for various reasons in the 50s and on average people in the US became (or perceived themselves) poorer since then - also for various reasons. People want the 50s back with neat houses, nice cars and a life time job from General Motors. Todays world is complicated and the reasons for why the US and other countries are in the state they are is complicated. And the 50s in the mind of many people was nice and simple. But for Trump voters it boils down to the rise of black people and hispanics(as can be seen in spike of growth in resentment after Obama became president and millions felt they are ruled by a black person now, e.g. see spike in militia groups). Instead of understanding the reasons for the downfall in (perceived) wealth it boils down to a zero sum game where "what other people get, I don't have". The fall of the American empire since 1990 has accelerated this believe and has lead to Trumps "make America great again". I'm with Forrest Gump, “Stupid is as stupid does". Not about what people think or how they see themselves. Were 1933 Germans racist? Götz Aly has shown ("Der Volksstaat") that Germans profited a lot from Hitler materially, so were they racists or just opportunists? Racists explain the world in races and declare themselves victims of another race (Jews, Blacks, Tutsi, ...). Racist people very seldom see themselves as racist. People become racists when they think they are unfairly treated compared to others and when they get into dire economic circumstances.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    It's even simpler than actual racism: quite a few people believe that they are intrinsically 'better' along some dimension (virtue, way of life, religion, skin color, whatever) and that the 'others' are worth less or are even sub-human on account of this. Racism is mostly an expression of one of those factors. This perfectly explains why division happens on the basis of an 'in' group and an 'out' group and why the solutions (for want of a better word) aimed at the outgroup start with deportation and end with gas chambers: they're lesser humans or not even humans at all in the eyes of the perpetrators. The fact that skin color is so easily determined obviously makes it a perfect candidate.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      But you have chosen that line arbitrarily. You can have groups that separate along decisions. Some select way A, some select way B. The same group dynamics apply. Agreed that skin color is a good candidate, but it was not required in the case of gas chambers for example. As an outsider looking towards the US, I wouldn't say conservatives started with this discrimination and it is far more a product of academia that might have removed itself from common problems of people they also like to make fun off because they are insecure about themselves.
raxxorrax 5y ago
Sorry, I don't believe this story at all. I believe this is a story people tell themselves to feel better about "the others". The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. On the other side justification was made up for real institutional discrimination against white people with the same lies that spawned accusations like this. But that wasn't to combat racism, it was to satisfy egoistical vanity and weak characters. I belong to a minority and I feel pressured to state this whenever I engage with people that bring forward such ideas and that is not a mistake. Back to reality: People never cared much about race. There are some exceptions to this and there is still prejudice against certain minorities. But I firmly believe your characterization doesn't understand the perspective of Trump supporters very well.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  "The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary." There are hundreds of interviews with Trump supporters or Brexiteers that say exactly what I have said. So how you arrive at "have seen no evidence" is astonishing to me. There are election posters for Brexit that are racist. There are books about the topic of people in the UK wantig the Empire back for its racism. "Back to reality: People never cared much about race." Ah yes, Ruanda never happened. Or thousands of pogroms. Or the thousands of public hangings in the South of the US. "People do not care about race."
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    This is getting off topic fast. I disagree, I believe a large part of the opposition you declare racist is not. Reactionary might make sense and it is very closely related to how information was handled here.

randomsearch 5y ago

> if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. If you want to build a society of trust, you need a sane president.