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I don't want to go all SJW on you guys, amazing work, but can you try to make sure there's an inclusive array of starting faces please? Talking about things lik

I don't want to go all SJW on you guys, amazing work, but can you try to make sure there's an inclusive array of starting faces please? Talking about things like skin tones, thanks!

deleted 5y ago
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liuru 5y ago
Indeed, we spent 2 years working on this!!! It's an extremely hard research problem, because darker skin tones account for only about 0.3% of all anime art produced in the world. We have employed an absolutely exhaustive array of art and data science tricks to give the model the ability to draw darker skin tones, though they are underrepresented. The results that you see today are the culmination of many months of careful tuning! It's not definitely perfect, but from a data science perspective, this situation can't be rectified until the art world makes a shift. Personally, I hope that more art representing dark skin tones will be created in the world!
- KaoruAoiShiho 5y ago
  Thanks, happy to hear that you guys are on top of it.
- pfisherman 5y ago
  I can’t understand why the GP comment is flagged. If you can look past all the “culture war” stuff, this is pointing out some of the limits of algorithmic creativity. It does not do well generating instances with features that are not well represented in the training dataset. Compare this to human creativity. I suspect that fulfilling GPs request would be almost trivial for a human professional artist. To be clear this is an amazing achievement, a creative use of the technology, and a positive contribution to the world. Pointing out limitations (i.e. areas with potential for future innovation) does not diminish it.
  - Simon321 5y ago
    That's because humans have also seen a lot of human beings with diverse skin tones. If we had only seen anime our whole life it would be much more difficult for us to conceive of also. With more compute, we will eventually be able to make bigger models with more knowledge of the world that will also be able to overcome this.
    - pfisherman 5y ago
      I think that is correct, but also a much much easier said than done when it comes to the implementation.
- numpad0 5y ago
  I don't quite understand the need to mandate racial caricaturizations in every modes of communication. I would find it upsetting if every pieces of texts and quotes were prefaced with an "origin" indicator to aid forming prejudices. Why have it in manga?
  - blackbrokkoli 5y ago
    If you are part of a marginalized group, it is both nice to the individual and productive for societal-level integration if you find yourself represented in media, especially if it's a generator with a promise of "generate anyone". No one here is mandating shit, GP asked a friendly question in a most respectful manner, which prompted an informative answer from OP even. If such interaction generates such an allergic reaction in you, the problem is not with the grandparent comment.
    - numpad0 5y ago
      > societal-level integration I really think this integration predominantly means systemic internalization of racism, with side effect of affirmative actions. When ethnicity is expressed with intent, a distinction is made, and distinction is synonymous to discrimination. Or classification, for that matter.
    - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
      What do you want to tell an otaku about marginalized groups?
  - educaysean 5y ago
    What mandate? It's a product designed to be used by living, breathing people and people tend have various preferences. Do people requesting darker skinned models somehow upset you more than people who request red haired models?
    - numpad0 5y ago
      Okay, I backtrack a bit, GP didn't specify that they want an adjustable ethnicity, only skin colors, and I made an assumption that exaggerated ethnic features is the intent.
greenn 5y ago
Honestly asking, isn't this stuff usually Japanese characters? I dunno if theres even "data" they could use for other skin tones
- userbinator 5y ago
  On the other hand, you get a full spectrum of eye and hair colour.
  - jacobolus 5y ago
    In Japanese anime, ethnically Japanese characters are regularly represented with unusual hair and eye colors, to help distinguish them from each-other. Including e.g. purple eyes or blue hair not naturally seen on humans.
- numlock86 5y ago
  Well, there is (or rather was) "ganguro" at least, which appeared in mangas an animes occasionally, too. Not sure how many people would be getting offended by that these days, though.
  - jhanschoo 5y ago
    Ganguro is associated with a certain Japanese subculture and aesthetic, and not meant at all to represent darker-skinned races. There are works that feature a more diverse cast, but perhaps the proportion of representation accurately reflects what you would see in Japanese society.
    - numlock86 5y ago
      > Ganguro is associated with a certain Japanese subculture and aesthetic, [...] Yes. What's your point? > [...] and not meant at all to represent darker-skinned races. No one ever claimed that. The question to my post was simply where to possibly get data from for "darker skin tones". Ganguro seems like an option because ... well, darker skin tones? Care to elaborate why you bring up "representation of darker skinned races" up in this context?
newobj 5y ago
Anime has a pretty severe "representation of blackness" problem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi2_S6kBgIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi2_S6kBgIg is one video discussing this). I'm afraid to imagine what a model trained on that source content would generate.

I don't want to go all SJW on you guys, amazing work, but can you try to make sure there's an inclusive array of starting faces please? Talking about things like skin tones, thanks!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

liuru 5y ago

Indeed, we spent 2 years working on this!!! It's an extremely hard research problem, because darker skin tones account for only about 0.3% of all anime art produced in the world. We have employed an absolutely exhaustive array of art and data science tricks to give the model the ability to draw darker skin tones, though they are underrepresented. The results that you see today are the culmination of many months of careful tuning! It's not definitely perfect, but from a data science perspective, this situation can't be rectified until the art world makes a shift. Personally, I hope that more art representing dark skin tones will be created in the world!

KaoruAoiShiho 5y ago
Thanks, happy to hear that you guys are on top of it.
pfisherman 5y ago
I can’t understand why the GP comment is flagged. If you can look past all the “culture war” stuff, this is pointing out some of the limits of algorithmic creativity. It does not do well generating instances with features that are not well represented in the training dataset. Compare this to human creativity. I suspect that fulfilling GPs request would be almost trivial for a human professional artist. To be clear this is an amazing achievement, a creative use of the technology, and a positive contribution to the world. Pointing out limitations (i.e. areas with potential for future innovation) does not diminish it.
- Simon321 5y ago
  That's because humans have also seen a lot of human beings with diverse skin tones. If we had only seen anime our whole life it would be much more difficult for us to conceive of also. With more compute, we will eventually be able to make bigger models with more knowledge of the world that will also be able to overcome this.
  - pfisherman 5y ago
    I think that is correct, but also a much much easier said than done when it comes to the implementation.
numpad0 5y ago
I don't quite understand the need to mandate racial caricaturizations in every modes of communication. I would find it upsetting if every pieces of texts and quotes were prefaced with an "origin" indicator to aid forming prejudices. Why have it in manga?
- blackbrokkoli 5y ago
  If you are part of a marginalized group, it is both nice to the individual and productive for societal-level integration if you find yourself represented in media, especially if it's a generator with a promise of "generate anyone". No one here is mandating shit, GP asked a friendly question in a most respectful manner, which prompted an informative answer from OP even. If such interaction generates such an allergic reaction in you, the problem is not with the grandparent comment.
  - numpad0 5y ago
    > societal-level integration I really think this integration predominantly means systemic internalization of racism, with side effect of affirmative actions. When ethnicity is expressed with intent, a distinction is made, and distinction is synonymous to discrimination. Or classification, for that matter.
  - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
    What do you want to tell an otaku about marginalized groups?
- educaysean 5y ago
  What mandate? It's a product designed to be used by living, breathing people and people tend have various preferences. Do people requesting darker skinned models somehow upset you more than people who request red haired models?
  - numpad0 5y ago
    Okay, I backtrack a bit, GP didn't specify that they want an adjustable ethnicity, only skin colors, and I made an assumption that exaggerated ethnic features is the intent.

greenn 5y ago

Honestly asking, isn't this stuff usually Japanese characters? I dunno if theres even "data" they could use for other skin tones

userbinator 5y ago
On the other hand, you get a full spectrum of eye and hair colour.
- jacobolus 5y ago
  In Japanese anime, ethnically Japanese characters are regularly represented with unusual hair and eye colors, to help distinguish them from each-other. Including e.g. purple eyes or blue hair not naturally seen on humans.
numlock86 5y ago
Well, there is (or rather was) "ganguro" at least, which appeared in mangas an animes occasionally, too. Not sure how many people would be getting offended by that these days, though.
- jhanschoo 5y ago
  Ganguro is associated with a certain Japanese subculture and aesthetic, and not meant at all to represent darker-skinned races. There are works that feature a more diverse cast, but perhaps the proportion of representation accurately reflects what you would see in Japanese society.
  - numlock86 5y ago
    > Ganguro is associated with a certain Japanese subculture and aesthetic, [...] Yes. What's your point? > [...] and not meant at all to represent darker-skinned races. No one ever claimed that. The question to my post was simply where to possibly get data from for "darker skin tones". Ganguro seems like an option because ... well, darker skin tones? Care to elaborate why you bring up "representation of darker skinned races" up in this context?

newobj 5y ago

Anime has a pretty severe "representation of blackness" problem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi2_S6kBgIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi2_S6kBgIg is one video discussing this). I'm afraid to imagine what a model trained on that source content would generate.