7 ms·

Is there a way, outside full transparency from China in some "perestroika" type situation which seems highly unlikely, we will ever really know for sure?

by rhcom2 5y ago

nradov 5y ago
It's also possible that the Chinese authorities themselves don't even know exactly what happened. Despite their authoritarian surveillance state they aren't omniscient.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  Massive push for gag orders and having to sign in red ink over “severe punishment” for discussing anything related to COVID across the entire science community in China? Every virus related paper must be approved by CCP before publishing it or they’ll face severe consequences. I have by default zero trust in CCP. So they would need to go out of their way to disprove it. Even then, I would question forgery and fake made up data to show to the world. Ethics goes out of the window when it’s party’s reputation.
- Reason077 5y ago
  It's easy to make sure you don't know what you don't want to know if you don't go looking for it.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    To give a recent Western example, here is a story in two acts: "An Intelligence Report Will Say UK Spy Agencies Found No Evidence Of Russian State Interference In The Outcome Of The Brexit Referendum"[0] "Boris Johnson refuses Russia report's demand to probe 'meddling' in Brexit vote"[1] [0] https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/intelligence-report-russia-no-interference-brexit https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/intelligence-report... [1] https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-refuses-russia-22390201 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnso...
  - RandomBK 5y ago
    As much as I hate it, plausible deniability is a common and effective Standard Operating Procedure for many organizations and governments. "Two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don't have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be." - Sir Humphrey Appleby
option 5y ago
We will know for sure after CCP falls, just like we learned many of USSR secrets after it fell (for example it’s anthrax leak in the 70ies)
- paganel 5y ago
  At this point I'm not sure the CCP will fall anytime soon, they managed to implement capitalism even better than many Western European countries (they still lag the US in that respect, but catching fast). CCP will fall only if capitalism as we know it falls.

Is there a way, outside full transparency from China in some "perestroika" type situation which seems highly unlikely, we will ever really know for sure?

by rhcom2 5y ago

Is there a way, outside full transparency from China in some "perestroika" type situation which seems highly unlikely, we will ever really know for sure?

nradov 5y ago

It's also possible that the Chinese authorities themselves don't even know exactly what happened. Despite their authoritarian surveillance state they aren't omniscient.

systemvoltage 5y ago
Massive push for gag orders and having to sign in red ink over “severe punishment” for discussing anything related to COVID across the entire science community in China? Every virus related paper must be approved by CCP before publishing it or they’ll face severe consequences. I have by default zero trust in CCP. So they would need to go out of their way to disprove it. Even then, I would question forgery and fake made up data to show to the world. Ethics goes out of the window when it’s party’s reputation.
Reason077 5y ago
It's easy to make sure you don't know what you don't want to know if you don't go looking for it.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  To give a recent Western example, here is a story in two acts: "An Intelligence Report Will Say UK Spy Agencies Found No Evidence Of Russian State Interference In The Outcome Of The Brexit Referendum"[0] "Boris Johnson refuses Russia report's demand to probe 'meddling' in Brexit vote"[1] [0] https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/intelligence-report-russia-no-interference-brexit https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/intelligence-report... [1] https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-refuses-russia-22390201 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnso...
- RandomBK 5y ago
  As much as I hate it, plausible deniability is a common and effective Standard Operating Procedure for many organizations and governments. "Two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don't have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be." - Sir Humphrey Appleby

option 5y ago

We will know for sure after CCP falls, just like we learned many of USSR secrets after it fell (for example it’s anthrax leak in the 70ies)

paganel 5y ago
At this point I'm not sure the CCP will fall anytime soon, they managed to implement capitalism even better than many Western European countries (they still lag the US in that respect, but catching fast). CCP will fall only if capitalism as we know it falls.