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Microsoft posts its own teardown and repair video for the Surface Laptop SE
- jmuguy 5y agoI once had to recover data from a dead 1st generation Surface Pro. That required a heat gun, a new torx set and about three hours of time prying the thing apart, completely destroying it in the process. I'm glad to see things swinging back in the other direction.
- client4 5y agoI'm sure it's been said before by many, but I'd have a few extra mm of thickness to get back replaceable ram, ssd, wifi, etc. The post yesterday about moving back to an old Thinkpad has me motivated to do something like that for my next computer. A Thinkpad chassis with an updated mainboad, screen, and battery would make me happy.
- ip26 5y agoOn the other hand, socketed parts are prone to corrosion at the contacts in adverse conditions. My old x61 had some issues with the SO-DIMM socket corroding from all the time in my bike bags. Soldered-down ram and an add-on socket has seemed like a nice compromise to me.
- black_puppydog 5y agototally guessing here, but that's not the majority of use cases ;)
- kasabali 5y agoSoldered parts are prone to fractures in BGA solder balls which are more annoying and expensive to repair compared to cleaning up sockets and rubbing pads with a pencil eraser one in a while.
- kube-system 5y agoSocketed RAM modules have more solder joints than the alternative. The packages on your socketed RAM are attached to the module the same way they would be attached to the motherboard. BGA has been used across the board since DDR2.
- kasabali 5y agoI don't need to repair memory modules, though. I can toss them away and get a replacement for few dozen bucks. Good luck finding a cheap commodity replacement for the whole motherboard.
- kube-system 5y agoOf all of the parts of your laptop to break and leave you without the availability of a replacement, your RAM is the least of your worries. Damage prone parts that are replaceable are already hard enough to find replacements for. And of all the parts on your mainboard to break, your i/o is going to be the likely culprit. And few laptops modularize those.
- csdvrx 5y agoBake your board in the oven (in a pinch a toaster can do) for a quick-n-dirty reflow
- yokoprime 5y agoI have a 10 year old T420S with a new battery. Im _really_ interested in screen replacements as the original screen is pretty weak.
- ab_testing 5y agoIt is possible to upgrade to IPS display in a T420. This is a starting point. It needs a special controller card and ofcourse an upgraded screen. https://www.curlybrace.com/words/2020/11/24/thinkpad-t420-ips-pls-screen-upgrade/ https://www.curlybrace.com/words/2020/11/24/thinkpad-t420-ip... https://www.amazon.com/1080p-1920X1080-Upgrade-thinkpad-Controller/dp/B07N4Q9YCF https://www.amazon.com/1080p-1920X1080-Upgrade-thinkpad-Cont...
- anotherman554 5y agoHow did you get a reliable new battery for a 10 year old laptop? Lenovo doesn't appear to make batteries for old laptops, and I've had bad experiences ordering from random sellers on Amazon.com.
- Scoundreller 5y agoDunno about Lenovo, but once you get old enough, a laptop battery is just a pretty box for standard cylindrical shells. Carefully shuck the old ones out and solder new ones in and voila.
- okl 5y agoUpgrade to a refurbished T450s or T460 and you get a very nice FHD IPS display.
- flavius29663 5y agobut you lose on the keyboard...
- throwaway2331 5y agoW530 with a keyboard mod. IIRC, the cable needs to be modified, because the connectors are different, but I've seen it work.
- mlindner 5y agoWith the trend for on-die RAM and the lower latencies that allows, it's not going to be possible to remove the RAM in the future.
- wtallis 5y agoNobody is moving DRAM on-die. Apple puts DRAM on-package, and x86 laptops using LPDDRx solder it on the main board next to the soldered-down CPU/SoC. The advantage of doing so is not latency (which is still dominated by stuff that happens entirely within the DRAM die) but rather that LPDDR allows for lower power draw for the same bandwidth.
- Scoundreller 5y agoI’d think soldering down has some other benefits: 1) better heat conduction 2) more predictable RF/contact capacitance issues/characteristics
- bentcorner 5y agoI think that's a more-or-less acceptable compromise for now. Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone add on-board RAM back in to allow for cheaper expansion. Most operating systems support NUMA, this approach seems similar to that idea.
- kube-system 5y agoThese machines exist. They’re just not usually stocked at your local big box store because that’s not a mass-market priority. Mass market customers would rather have a machine that is thinner, lighter, cheaper, and with better battery life.
- rswail 5y agoFramework Laptop provides customization and upgradeability which sounds like what you want. https://frame.work https://frame.work
- vaylian 5y agoAgreed. I think the disassembly video of the Surface SE is pretty impressive (kudos Microsoft!), but Framework still blows the Surface SE out of the water in terms of internal accessibility and modularity of the laptop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV2umY3R0vw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV2umY3R0vw
- NikolaNovak 5y agoFramework gets us a long way in the right direction; still lacking things some of us need - admittedly a minority: 1. Standardized keyboard. For some reason modern laptops hate Home/End/PgUp/PgDwn buttons; but I use them literally every minute of my typing. Arrow keys too are tiny, up and down look to be sharing the same key - so basically unusable on regular basis. 2. Trackpoint/Nub/Nipple. If you're trying to make a small laptop, rather than crippling keyboard for the sake of massive giant trackpad, Trackpoint is the way to go. Granted, higher learning curve for many, but very rewarding in the end. Again, understanding we are now talking a niche of a niche - "want standard keyboard and trackpoint" subset of "want practical modular laptop"; but that's why old school Thinkpads are still so prized for some.
- eikenberry 5y agoThey did give feedback a a while ago that they are looking into the thinkpad style trackpoint/mouse-button interface as a purchasable option in the future.
- NikolaNovak 5y agoMissed that! Awesome sauce, that's incredible to hear :)
- Goronmon 5y ago
- zokier 5y agoLenovo P15 series would be example of laptops that have not gone crazy in light and thin direction, so it has m.2 slots for ssds, and sodimms for RAM as you'd expect, all accessible by undoing few screws and lifting the back cover: https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/inside-lenovo-thinkpad-p15v-gen-2-disassembly-and-upgrade-options/ https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/inside-lenovo-thinkpad-p1... Or some random Dell laptop that seems pretty comparable https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/inside-dell-precision-15-3561-disassembly-and-upgrade-options/ https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/inside-dell-precision-15-...
- bashinator 5y agoAbsolutely love my Thinkpad X1 for running linux; it's pretty much the same design but without the awful number pad. The fingerprint scanner even got support recently!
- _trampeltier 5y agoAnd a bit more ruggedness again. The superlight notebooks don't really if there are other things in the bag.
- srikz 5y agoHoping more companies like frame.work[1] come up and succeed. They have shown it is possible and the laptop need not be bulky or very expensive and still be repairable. [1]: https://frame.work https://frame.work
- trelane 5y agoThere are lots of user-serviceable laptops. Just not the mainstream brands.
- Const-me 5y agoTo be fair, Microsoft does show how to replace the WiFi module, but I absolutely agree on the rest. Fortunately, Microsoft is not the only company making laptops and filming videos, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMMjSF4QFw&ab_channel=HPSupport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMMjSF4QFw&ab_channel=HPSup... The HP video is much less entertaining, much longer, and the narrator is likely a text-to-speech software. However, I think it’s more informative, for instance it shows how to assemble the device back.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago> I'm sure it's been said before by many, but I'd have a few extra mm of thickness to get back replaceable ram, ssd, wifi, etc. This is the exact opposite of what manufacturers want so I don't think there is any hope of reversing this crazy trend. The vendors copying Apple don't understand that Apple controls their users as they are already hooked to their ecosystem so they have no choice, but people outside of this ecosystem do have a choice and when presented with a thin plate with everything glued and irreplaceable and no useful ports, they will simply look for another solution. Not to mention environmental problems created by this craze.
- yokoprime 5y agoLooks like the Surface Laptop SE is pretty repairable if you can source parts, much better than the Surface Pro and Surface book series which is pretty much glued together, making it virtually impossible for novices to take apart without causing further damage.
- masklinn 5y agoThe reason why they posted this is probably because the Surface Laptop was, as far as I remember, the only device to get a 0 repairability score from iFixit, with the conclusion that > The Surface Laptop is not a laptop. It’s a glue-filled monstrosity. There is nothing about it that is upgradable or long-lasting, and it literally can’t be opened without destroying it. The only other thing which scored that low from them was an April Fool's teardown of an orange (which scored O).
- aradaelli 5y agoThat's awesome, for me an easy repairable/upgradeable device is a big plus. Only being able to change the battery can increase the lifespan of the device hugely. Kudos to MS and I hope this trends will pick up with other vendors as well.
- ziml77 5y agoI wonder where the bigger pressure is coming from to make more repairable devices. Is it because that's what it's starting to seem like the market wants based on competition? Or is it because they are trying to head off any regulations that might come if they don't show that they are making repairable devices?
- MikusR 5y agoI am 99.9999999999999999% sure it's regulations.
- rPlayer6554 5y agoWhich regulations?
- MikusR 5y agoThe possibility of right to repair.
- namlem 5y agoThe right to repair movement is gaining steam. Even if regulations don't get passed, consumers are sick of being ripped off by planned obsolescence and gouged for first party repairs.
- tempodox 5y agoI'd love to see something similar to this from Apple, but that will never happen as long as it's purely up to them.
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y agoIf you want to skip to the actual video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVjjSqfp75g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVjjSqfp75g
- em500 5y agoI'm all for cheap devices, but I can't believe they're releasing a new model with a 1366x768 (probably non-IPS) display in 2022...
- JOnAgain 5y agoStarting at $249, though
- friendlydog 5y agoWhen you have warehouses full of them, it is better to use up the stock. If they are making new screens at that resolution I would completely agree. The price point is fairly low, but it is a very old spec from a technology standpoint.
- notjulianjaynes 5y agoThese are meant for schools to hand out to students. Many of these screens will be smashed in creative ways. Better to go with the cheaper to replace component.
- olyjohn 5y agoThere are dialog boxes in Windows that won't even fit on the screen though. 768 is not enough pixels.
- notjulianjaynes 5y agoThat's funny. For the intended classroom use I'd argue this is a feature. 1. Can't fuck with the settings if you can't click on the correct dialog box. 2. Harder for kids to be ahem "multitasking" if they can't fit two windows on the screen.
- rubidium 5y ago"768 is not enough pixels." Must say, as someone who did web design in the late 90's-early 00's this made me chuckle.
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- mkdirp 5y agoThis is great, but I just want to give a word of caution. Just because they've posted this, we shouldn't loosen the pressure valve on them. For all we know this could be just "let's post a single video so people will stop complaining to us that we're not repair-friendly". They might climb back into their anti-repair chairs and recline again after this. We need to keep the flame under their feet until repairability becomes part of their DNA, and even then we'll need to ensure they stay like that.
- laputan_machine 5y agoNice, but using Torx heads for the case is completely unnecessary. If the internals are fine using PH0 heads then the the case can use PH heads too. I recently found out after wanting to do a quick repair on my (very cheap, Asda's own brand) toaster that it uses Torx security bits to prevent people from accessing the internals! Buying a set of quality bits is more expensive than just buying a new toaster... It boggles the mind.
- rightbyte 5y agoI think torx are better for robot assembly? However I think torx are fine from a repairability perspective.
- jpgvm 5y agoThey are common place enough now that I think they are fine. That wasn't always true but these days torx is widely available even at generic hardware stores (hell in Thailand I bought a set of torx drivers at a 7-11).
- newsclues 5y agoTorx security bits aren’t the same as normal torx
- laputan_machine 5y agoYou are correct when we're talking about using Torx for things that need to be torqued fairly highly, but in this case I disagree. The fact that so many companies use Torx bits means that a lot of people have them handy now, but still, it's more faff than a PH/PZ bit, where almost anything with a thin flat edge can be used to turn it. Torx are designed for high torque applications. Whenever they are used for low torque applications it is for "security" (read: we don't want you messing with this) purposes. I'd argue that a case does not need to be torqued that high (and if you do you probably risk cracking the case).
- namlem 5y agoTorx doesn't slip or strip easily like Philips does.
- johnohara 5y agoFTA: "Repairability is a selling point for the Surface Laptop SE in particular because the laptop is being marketed to schools, where laptops can be dropped, spilled on, or otherwise abused by kids who may or may not know better." This should read: "... where laptops will be dropped, spilled on, and abused by kids who know better." Besides, many kids enjoy learning by way of repairing. Especially if it works afterword.
- pacaro 5y agoI worked on a project in the mid 90s where our customer (an electric utility) wanted to issue rugged laptops to field engineers. The relevant comment from a manger at the utility was "you have to realize, these are guys who can break a hammer"
- inetknght 5y ago> Repairability is a selling point for the Surface Laptop SE in particular because the laptop is being marketed to schools Well that's a problem. Repairability should be marketed to everyone, not just schools.
- acd 5y agoThere should in general be repair friendly editions of devices design for easy repair, ram upgrade and ssd upgrade. Open boot loader, open source driver and open hardware manuals.
- pmarreck 5y agoImpressive, I guess?
- chaorace 5y agoI wonder if this was influenced by Valve's recent "Deck" teardown video?[1] I'd love to see this become a trend in the "boutique" hardware space -- it's a lot harder to cut corners on the internals when you're shining a spotlight on them! [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxnr2FAADAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxnr2FAADAs
- jpgvm 5y agoTeardown video is good, almost on par with something from iFixit. Maybe a bit less precise/well rehearsed but that is OK. Also like that it's just a normal engineer doing it and not some marketing person/"advocate". Makes it seem much more relaxed and well, normal. Chill dude sporting some tats and speaking normally as he pulls something apart shouldn't be something amazing or anything but it's just such a rarity in todays carefully groomed public image machinery that we see from big companies.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- symlinkk 5y agoDo you seriously think tattoos are still counter culture? If anything it’s counter culture to not have tattoos and be clean shaven.
- culturestate 5y ago> Do you seriously think tattoos are still counter culture? This depends a lot on where you live and what your ethnic and religious background is. There are plenty of places and people left in the world who look down on body modification.
- mr_overalls 5y agoThis. I live in Madison, Wisconsin (aka, the "Berkeley of the Midwest") where tattoos and facial piercings are absolutely the norm - even my kids' daycare teachers openly sport them. When I return to my small Mississippi hometown, only "rough" people openly display tattoos, and generally only a small minority of men are not clean-shaven with short haircuts. Male jewelry is minimal, things like facial piercings are heavily frowned upon, etc. Regional norms can be very different.
- donkeybeer 5y agoI think he meant the opposite, in that the tattoos would make it feel like a normal guy.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sdo72 5y agoI'm not sure how this would help people to fix this device as the laptop is being sold only to educational entities in bulk. Normal users won't be able to buy. Most people can't fix these since they belong to schools and the schools probably won't spend money on fixing these.
- reidjs 5y agoHave you considered that it might help the people at the school fix it?
- jdavis703 5y agoYes, and that it could help inquisitive students? I know in the old days nerdy kids would do teardowns before we even had YouTube. I would assume kids these days still do it.
- sdo72 5y agoI think kids definitely can fix their own laptops if they're theirs. In this case, the school would prohibit the kids to open or attempt fixing any of the laptop. And why kids should even attempt fixing it? They can turn it in to get a "new" laptop. Thus, this doesn't happen.
- sdo72 5y agoI doubt that the school IT people would attempt to fix it. That's a different job. I haven't heard a school IT person even attempts to replace a laptop battery. Any attempt fixing it has a good amount of risk of breaking the laptops. Hence, they school would have to outsource or rely on a 3rd party to fix and the cost would become even higher.
- reidjs 5y agoIf it’s under warranty they send it out for the depo repair, but I have been that IT guy before and when there was down time I did crack open dead machines to try and bring them back to life.
- SubiculumCode 5y agoMicrosoft is such a weird company these days. So many contradictory patterns across its arms that it is hard to characterize it as having a singular corporate philosophy. On the one hand, you have windows which has moved more and more towards surveillance and users not really controlling/owning their own software...but then you have the moves towards embracing (and not extinguishing) open source interoperability, and now promoting DIY repairs on their hardware.
- namlem 5y agoIt doesn't have a singular corporate philosophy. MS has long had a reputation for inter-department rivalry and even animosity. From what I understand, things have gotten somewhat better, but there's still a lot of tension and disagreement.
- 0000011111 5y agoThats great. The NFL players drop, throw and break the iPad like devices all the time. We got to fix these broken tablets people!
- rwaksmunski 5y agoWasn't the education sector eaten alive by Chromebooks and iPads? Is Microsoft trying to desperately hold on to a market segment here?
- jackvalentine 5y agoPurchasing my wife a new laptop last year I was delighted to find the model we ended up choosing had a detailed service manual available: https://dl.dell.com/topicspdf/inspiron-13-7306-2-in-1-laptop_service-manual3_en-us.pdf https://dl.dell.com/topicspdf/inspiron-13-7306-2-in-1-laptop... This kind of thing should be incentivised as a part of right to repair laws.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoGoogle Chromebooks were very disruptive to the educational environment that Apple used to own. I am a huge fan of the iPad, but it is definitely too expensive for the educational market. I would love if they released a durable version.