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I live in Taiwan. Very, very few people here are pro-PRC. Tons of Taiwanese people love China and culturally consider themselves Chinese (to be clear, not Chine

I live in Taiwan. Very, very few people here are pro-PRC. Tons of Taiwanese people love China and culturally consider themselves Chinese (to be clear, not Chinese citizens.) The vast majority of people disagree on if they should either give up and surrender to the PRC because they may launch missiles or invade once they have a non-laughing stock navy, avoid a bloody war, or if China wouldn’t dare to do that because it would trigger WW3 so they are safe to declare and protect their country (Taiwan.) Everyone out here agrees that the PRC is basically evil. Edit: Just want to add that a lot of you probably have no idea that Chinese people and Taiwanese people also get along with each other just fine. They are unfortunately a geopolitical chess piece on the table between the PRC and Deep State US. I find it deliciously ironic that when Taiwanese people travel or work in China that they use their ROC (Taiwanese) passport and there is no issue with that. A lot of the conflict is also theatre for your American news cycle.

throw8932894 5y ago
- krageon 5y ago
  Taiwan is the leftover of the fascist faction, is it not? Not exactly a paragon of Chinese cultural history. We're just looking at a very, very slow civil war.
  - forvelin 5y ago
    Nationalists for many, fascists for some. One should not evaluate Chinese civil war with European eyeglasses.
    - krageon 5y ago
      I'm just trying to get an honest overview of the history. Fascist is not necessarily a dirty word, just a style of government.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        it's more of a state ideology than a style of government - I don't think fascism has any defining economic positions, for instance, except opposition to socialism.
        krageon 5y ago
        I'm talking about Fascism as it is commonly understood: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        yeah me too - from your link: > often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition the first part of that is the defining part of fascism - the state ideology. There's also common co-features like authoritarianism, a cult of personality and anti-democratic tendencies but neither are especially universal (for instance with Pinochet and Franco). It is pretty commonly used to describe just authoritarianism in general though.
        krageon 5y ago
        In this case I thought the racial superiority angle was relevant, which is why fascism was a good fit for what I was describing.
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        That definition is deficient. Fascism also includes state involvement in private industry. I dislike the usage of "fascism" to mean "authoritarianism I disapprove of" (I used to use the word that way). It's an unhelpful word, because people use it in so many ways. Now, I only use it to refer to the Italian state under Mussolini. For other uses, I try to say what I mean.
    - pasabagi 5y ago
      I think there's a degree of straight cultural influence from european fascism (the nationalist's elite units were trained by german officers in the interwar years), plus having the same basic project (the nationalists were trying to create a nation for the Han[0]), and the same methods (extrajudicial violence, state terror[1]). I agree that it's hard to use european political categories in east asia, but I think the KMT is a neater fit for fascism than a lot of european fascists (e.g. Spain's nationalsts). I think the problem is less an east-west thing and more just that fascism is a really vague category. [0]: dunno if that counts as an ethnicity, but dunno if that matters. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
  - routerl 5y ago
    The KMT ("blues"; historical ruling party of Taiwan, and main opposition to the CCP during the civil war) was indeed an authoritarian party; Taiwan was a dictatorship until 1996, under the guise of "martial law to prepare for invading the mainland". However, they are not officially "fascists", but "republicans". Since then, they have been a democratic country mostly governed by the DPP ("greens"; formerly an anti-authoritarian dissident movement), which also leads the Taiwan independence movement, which aims at creating a "Republic of Taiwan" rather than a "Republic of China".
  - jabbany 5y ago
    I mean if you must compare, the Nationalists that modern Taiwan derives from is more similar to a _conservative_ party in the west while the CCP is a more _progressive_ (and fascist if you view it that way) party. That being said, the modern day CCP under Xi's rule has started becoming more conservative, while Taiwan's relatively free political climate has given rise to their own versions of progressive political parties.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  What are the elements of "Chinese culture" that persist in Taiwan and were eliminated in Mainland China?
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    Not exactly sure but I would assume that any trace of religion was the first to go in Mao's revolution.
    - platinumrad 5y ago
      If you're not exactly sure then is this exactly a productive comment?
      - rackjack 5y ago
        I think it was.
  - starfallg 5y ago
    Almost everything, including the writing system. They even thought about romanisation, but instead just settled on butchering many of the complex characters without fully considering the historical, linguistic or aesthetic concerns.
    - platinumrad 5y ago
      Even if you are a staunch traditionalist, "almost everything" is a massive exaggeration. The entire country still effectively shuts down for two weeks during the lunar new year. Sure this would be among the first things to go in an authoritarian state hell-bent on industrialization and yet it has persisted.
      - starfallg 5y ago
        Of course that's a figure of speech, but hey, ok. With regards to the lunar new year break, Communist regimes actually have lots of public holidays. That's straight from their ideology, so not sure why you think that authoritarianism must equal to oppressing worker rights or the labour movement. That's why there is a distinction between the authoritarian left and the authoritarian right.
- rackjack 5y ago
  ??? The teachings of Confucius, the food, even those big red door decorations with the symbols on them, and so on... are these not things that are still endemic across the mainland? It is simply absurd to claim Chinese culture only survived in "a few small places" in the mainland.
  - schappim 5y ago
    It's also pretty hard to claim there is one Chinese culture.
    - rackjack 5y ago
      Very true. North and South have different food cultures, and dialects between different regions can be borderline incomprehensible to each other, just off the top of my head.
      - mlindner 5y ago
        If you want to nitpick, it's not just different dialects but different languages. Mutual intelligibility is a common line used to split things into separate languages and most of the Sinitic language group "languages" are true languages as they aren't mutually intelligible. It's a bunch of different languages with a shared writing system and more mutual intelligibility in writing than in spoken words.
      - ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
        > dialects between different regions can be borderline incomprehensible to each other That's because they aren't dialects. They are different languages. The CCP has pushed this lie that all Chinese languages are "dialects" instead of separate languages because it aligns with their narrative of a single Chinese people. You can be a single ethnicity and still have differences and different languages, but to the mainland government differences undermine cohesion. The differences between these so called "dialects" are larger than between the Romance languages to each other. Thus, there is more mutual intelligibility between Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian than between Taiwanese, Mandarin, and Cantonese. To call them "dialects" is linguistically incorrect. They are separate languages. Someone will always respond that they are mutually intelligible through writing, and that's true. But that's bc the writing system isn't actually portraying the verbal language. It is a pictographic script.
- captainmuon 5y ago
  Not to take sides here, but China is big and saying "Chinese culture" is a bit like "European culture". Didn't the ROC displace the native culture and languages of Tawian when they fled? Also I would think the abolisment of imperal rule and a lot of imperial culture is one of the very few things KMT and CCP can agree on.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    Taiwan has it even stranger as they were ruled by Japan for 50 years (long before WW2) so much of their culture had started to become Japanese culture or a Japanese-Taiwanese hybrid culture. Japan massively modernized the country to the point that when Taiwan has handed back to China, Taiwan was more advanced than China. I read one description that described it as being re-invaded by a bunch of uncultured ruffians that went looting and pillaging everywhere.
rnmwfQ3f 5y ago
My wife is Taiwanese, so I can confirm Taiwanese and Chinese get along fine. Many marriages, friendships and business partnerships cross the Taiwan Strait. However Taiwanese people don't use their passport to travel to China. China doesn't recognise it. They are issued a travel permit by the PRC, similar to citizens of Hong Kong and Macau.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  Not only that. You can’t just travel from China to Taiwan. It’s a bit difficult. Most people must travel as part of a tour group. Unless it’s business or you have family to sponsor you or something like that. Basically you can’t just jump on a plane and have a holiday in Taiwan from China.
  - bjornstar 5y ago
    This used to be true, but in 2008 direct flights between China & Taiwan were established and today it's easy to holiday in Taiwan from China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Links https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Links
    - philliphaydon 5y ago
      When president President Tsai Ing-wen was elected it became difficult. In both 2016 and again in 2019. China banned solo travel from certain cities in China to Taiwan.
- kinghtown 5y ago
  I was just talking to someone who came back from working in Shanghai and that’s not what she told me but it’s very possible she misunderstood my question.
  - routerl 5y ago
    ROC and PROC don't recognize each others' passports, since both states hold the official position that the other state does not exist (and that travelling between the mainland and Taiwan does not, therefore, count as "international travel"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainland_Travel_Permit_for_Taiwan_Residents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainland_Travel_Permit_for_Tai...
jabbany 5y ago
Besides some outlier ultra nationalists, most regular citizens of the mainland are also not huge fans of the CCP either and would happily get along with Taiwanese. And I have met some Taiwanese who even ironically have an overly romanticized view of the mainland --- seeing it as having made huge strides economically compared to the somewhat stagnant local economy. At the end of the day, Taiwan culturally has more in common with the mainland than, say, Hong Kong does, because more of its history was spent together. Anything beyond is often a lot of "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality happening. People on both sides envy some aspects of what the other side has, but also would not trade what they have themselves to get it.
- dmix 5y ago
  I always found it (vaguely) interesting that people from both Taiwan and Hong Kong refer to PRC China as ‘mainlander’. But I see how it makes sense. > At the end of the day, Taiwan culturally has more in common with the mainland than, say, Hong Kong does As a western for some reason I thought this would be the opposite.
  - jabbany 5y ago
    > Taiwan and Hong Kong refer to PRC China as ‘mainlander’ It's a general thing in the broad Sinosphere. Even the Japanese refer to (PRC) Chinese as "mainlanders" (大陸人/だいりくじん †) despite, you know, it being a completely different country for much of history! †: You'll notice this sometimes in Anime. For example, in Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei's first episode the students respond to the teacher's unusual name with "must be from the mainland (=China)". In modern usage, the "mainland" modifier is often used to get around the sensitive Taiwan issue. Different people may disagree on who is included in "China", but "mainland China" unambiguously excludes Taiwan even in the PRC. Another fun fact is that English is woefully inexpressive when it comes to the cultural complexities of the broader Chinese cultural sphere. For example, a Taiwanese (or immigrant Chinese) person might identify as "culturally" Chinese (华人) but not "nationally" Chinese (中国人). A lot of this stuff gets lost in translation and ends up offending people inadvertently, because there aren't different English words! > As a western for some reason I thought this would be the opposite. Hong Kong split from the mainland in the 1840s and has been largely culturally (not necessarily politically) independent since. Modern Taiwan is the result of the KMT retreat during the civil war a _century_ later, in the 1940s. A mainlander visiting Hong Kong will feel like an American going to, say, the UK -- it will feel familiar but distinctly foreign. A mainlander visiting Taiwan will feel like an American going to, say, Canada --- it will feel quirky but kind of like home. The mainlander might struggle to chat with a Hong Kong local as many won't speak Mandarin, whereas in Taiwan, they will have no trouble engaging in a conversation, with maybe only occasionally realizing that the other person refers to what they would call a "microwave" as an "electronic range" (this is not a real example. A real example would be something like a mainlander referring to "topping up (a transit card)" as "recharging" the card while a Taiwanese might call it "adding value" to the card).
dumb1224 5y ago
We do get alone quite well at least in my circle. In my opinion people from Taiwan are actually more tolerate and warm than us. But increasingly young people from mainland are catching up and becoming more international. I can't imagine how anyone from taiwan could naturally be 'Pro' chinese gov (given the media portrait and long history of rivalry), they would more likely support either 'green' or 'blue' camp, who will act on behave of people to interface with mainland policies. The difference is some of my close Taiwanese friends are very weary of the political shows as they believe it is highly industrialised consumable entertainment while in the mainland people are quite innocent and audience are not mature enough and easily stirred up emotionally.

throw8932894 5y ago

krageon 5y ago
Taiwan is the leftover of the fascist faction, is it not? Not exactly a paragon of Chinese cultural history. We're just looking at a very, very slow civil war.
- forvelin 5y ago
  Nationalists for many, fascists for some. One should not evaluate Chinese civil war with European eyeglasses.
  - krageon 5y ago
    I'm just trying to get an honest overview of the history. Fascist is not necessarily a dirty word, just a style of government.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      it's more of a state ideology than a style of government - I don't think fascism has any defining economic positions, for instance, except opposition to socialism.
      - krageon 5y ago
        I'm talking about Fascism as it is commonly understood: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        yeah me too - from your link: > often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition the first part of that is the defining part of fascism - the state ideology. There's also common co-features like authoritarianism, a cult of personality and anti-democratic tendencies but neither are especially universal (for instance with Pinochet and Franco). It is pretty commonly used to describe just authoritarianism in general though.
        krageon 5y ago
        In this case I thought the racial superiority angle was relevant, which is why fascism was a good fit for what I was describing.
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        That definition is deficient. Fascism also includes state involvement in private industry. I dislike the usage of "fascism" to mean "authoritarianism I disapprove of" (I used to use the word that way). It's an unhelpful word, because people use it in so many ways. Now, I only use it to refer to the Italian state under Mussolini. For other uses, I try to say what I mean.
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    I think there's a degree of straight cultural influence from european fascism (the nationalist's elite units were trained by german officers in the interwar years), plus having the same basic project (the nationalists were trying to create a nation for the Han[0]), and the same methods (extrajudicial violence, state terror[1]). I agree that it's hard to use european political categories in east asia, but I think the KMT is a neater fit for fascism than a lot of european fascists (e.g. Spain's nationalsts). I think the problem is less an east-west thing and more just that fascism is a really vague category. [0]: dunno if that counts as an ethnicity, but dunno if that matters. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
- routerl 5y ago
  The KMT ("blues"; historical ruling party of Taiwan, and main opposition to the CCP during the civil war) was indeed an authoritarian party; Taiwan was a dictatorship until 1996, under the guise of "martial law to prepare for invading the mainland". However, they are not officially "fascists", but "republicans". Since then, they have been a democratic country mostly governed by the DPP ("greens"; formerly an anti-authoritarian dissident movement), which also leads the Taiwan independence movement, which aims at creating a "Republic of Taiwan" rather than a "Republic of China".
- jabbany 5y ago
  I mean if you must compare, the Nationalists that modern Taiwan derives from is more similar to a _conservative_ party in the west while the CCP is a more _progressive_ (and fascist if you view it that way) party. That being said, the modern day CCP under Xi's rule has started becoming more conservative, while Taiwan's relatively free political climate has given rise to their own versions of progressive political parties.
spoonjim 5y ago
What are the elements of "Chinese culture" that persist in Taiwan and were eliminated in Mainland China?
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Not exactly sure but I would assume that any trace of religion was the first to go in Mao's revolution.
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    If you're not exactly sure then is this exactly a productive comment?
    - rackjack 5y ago
      I think it was.
- starfallg 5y ago
  Almost everything, including the writing system. They even thought about romanisation, but instead just settled on butchering many of the complex characters without fully considering the historical, linguistic or aesthetic concerns.
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    Even if you are a staunch traditionalist, "almost everything" is a massive exaggeration. The entire country still effectively shuts down for two weeks during the lunar new year. Sure this would be among the first things to go in an authoritarian state hell-bent on industrialization and yet it has persisted.
    - starfallg 5y ago
      Of course that's a figure of speech, but hey, ok. With regards to the lunar new year break, Communist regimes actually have lots of public holidays. That's straight from their ideology, so not sure why you think that authoritarianism must equal to oppressing worker rights or the labour movement. That's why there is a distinction between the authoritarian left and the authoritarian right.
rackjack 5y ago
??? The teachings of Confucius, the food, even those big red door decorations with the symbols on them, and so on... are these not things that are still endemic across the mainland? It is simply absurd to claim Chinese culture only survived in "a few small places" in the mainland.
- schappim 5y ago
  It's also pretty hard to claim there is one Chinese culture.
  - rackjack 5y ago
    Very true. North and South have different food cultures, and dialects between different regions can be borderline incomprehensible to each other, just off the top of my head.
    - mlindner 5y ago
      If you want to nitpick, it's not just different dialects but different languages. Mutual intelligibility is a common line used to split things into separate languages and most of the Sinitic language group "languages" are true languages as they aren't mutually intelligible. It's a bunch of different languages with a shared writing system and more mutual intelligibility in writing than in spoken words.
    - ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
      > dialects between different regions can be borderline incomprehensible to each other That's because they aren't dialects. They are different languages. The CCP has pushed this lie that all Chinese languages are "dialects" instead of separate languages because it aligns with their narrative of a single Chinese people. You can be a single ethnicity and still have differences and different languages, but to the mainland government differences undermine cohesion. The differences between these so called "dialects" are larger than between the Romance languages to each other. Thus, there is more mutual intelligibility between Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian than between Taiwanese, Mandarin, and Cantonese. To call them "dialects" is linguistically incorrect. They are separate languages. Someone will always respond that they are mutually intelligible through writing, and that's true. But that's bc the writing system isn't actually portraying the verbal language. It is a pictographic script.
captainmuon 5y ago
Not to take sides here, but China is big and saying "Chinese culture" is a bit like "European culture". Didn't the ROC displace the native culture and languages of Tawian when they fled? Also I would think the abolisment of imperal rule and a lot of imperial culture is one of the very few things KMT and CCP can agree on.
- mlindner 5y ago
  Taiwan has it even stranger as they were ruled by Japan for 50 years (long before WW2) so much of their culture had started to become Japanese culture or a Japanese-Taiwanese hybrid culture. Japan massively modernized the country to the point that when Taiwan has handed back to China, Taiwan was more advanced than China. I read one description that described it as being re-invaded by a bunch of uncultured ruffians that went looting and pillaging everywhere.

rnmwfQ3f 5y ago

My wife is Taiwanese, so I can confirm Taiwanese and Chinese get along fine. Many marriages, friendships and business partnerships cross the Taiwan Strait. However Taiwanese people don't use their passport to travel to China. China doesn't recognise it. They are issued a travel permit by the PRC, similar to citizens of Hong Kong and Macau.

philliphaydon 5y ago
Not only that. You can’t just travel from China to Taiwan. It’s a bit difficult. Most people must travel as part of a tour group. Unless it’s business or you have family to sponsor you or something like that. Basically you can’t just jump on a plane and have a holiday in Taiwan from China.
- bjornstar 5y ago
  This used to be true, but in 2008 direct flights between China & Taiwan were established and today it's easy to holiday in Taiwan from China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Links https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Links
  - philliphaydon 5y ago
    When president President Tsai Ing-wen was elected it became difficult. In both 2016 and again in 2019. China banned solo travel from certain cities in China to Taiwan.
kinghtown 5y ago
I was just talking to someone who came back from working in Shanghai and that’s not what she told me but it’s very possible she misunderstood my question.
- routerl 5y ago
  ROC and PROC don't recognize each others' passports, since both states hold the official position that the other state does not exist (and that travelling between the mainland and Taiwan does not, therefore, count as "international travel"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainland_Travel_Permit_for_Taiwan_Residents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainland_Travel_Permit_for_Tai...

jabbany 5y ago

Besides some outlier ultra nationalists, most regular citizens of the mainland are also not huge fans of the CCP either and would happily get along with Taiwanese. And I have met some Taiwanese who even ironically have an overly romanticized view of the mainland --- seeing it as having made huge strides economically compared to the somewhat stagnant local economy. At the end of the day, Taiwan culturally has more in common with the mainland than, say, Hong Kong does, because more of its history was spent together. Anything beyond is often a lot of "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality happening. People on both sides envy some aspects of what the other side has, but also would not trade what they have themselves to get it.

dmix 5y ago
I always found it (vaguely) interesting that people from both Taiwan and Hong Kong refer to PRC China as ‘mainlander’. But I see how it makes sense. > At the end of the day, Taiwan culturally has more in common with the mainland than, say, Hong Kong does As a western for some reason I thought this would be the opposite.
- jabbany 5y ago
  > Taiwan and Hong Kong refer to PRC China as ‘mainlander’ It's a general thing in the broad Sinosphere. Even the Japanese refer to (PRC) Chinese as "mainlanders" (大陸人/だいりくじん †) despite, you know, it being a completely different country for much of history! †: You'll notice this sometimes in Anime. For example, in Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei's first episode the students respond to the teacher's unusual name with "must be from the mainland (=China)". In modern usage, the "mainland" modifier is often used to get around the sensitive Taiwan issue. Different people may disagree on who is included in "China", but "mainland China" unambiguously excludes Taiwan even in the PRC. Another fun fact is that English is woefully inexpressive when it comes to the cultural complexities of the broader Chinese cultural sphere. For example, a Taiwanese (or immigrant Chinese) person might identify as "culturally" Chinese (华人) but not "nationally" Chinese (中国人). A lot of this stuff gets lost in translation and ends up offending people inadvertently, because there aren't different English words! > As a western for some reason I thought this would be the opposite. Hong Kong split from the mainland in the 1840s and has been largely culturally (not necessarily politically) independent since. Modern Taiwan is the result of the KMT retreat during the civil war a _century_ later, in the 1940s. A mainlander visiting Hong Kong will feel like an American going to, say, the UK -- it will feel familiar but distinctly foreign. A mainlander visiting Taiwan will feel like an American going to, say, Canada --- it will feel quirky but kind of like home. The mainlander might struggle to chat with a Hong Kong local as many won't speak Mandarin, whereas in Taiwan, they will have no trouble engaging in a conversation, with maybe only occasionally realizing that the other person refers to what they would call a "microwave" as an "electronic range" (this is not a real example. A real example would be something like a mainlander referring to "topping up (a transit card)" as "recharging" the card while a Taiwanese might call it "adding value" to the card).

dumb1224 5y ago

We do get alone quite well at least in my circle. In my opinion people from Taiwan are actually more tolerate and warm than us. But increasingly young people from mainland are catching up and becoming more international. I can't imagine how anyone from taiwan could naturally be 'Pro' chinese gov (given the media portrait and long history of rivalry), they would more likely support either 'green' or 'blue' camp, who will act on behave of people to interface with mainland policies. The difference is some of my close Taiwanese friends are very weary of the political shows as they believe it is highly industrialised consumable entertainment while in the mainland people are quite innocent and audience are not mature enough and easily stirred up emotionally.