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Going further, we've moved on from the un-vaccinated in general. My problem is that even though I live in a bubble with 100% vaccination rate among my relatives

Going further, we've moved on from the un-vaccinated in general. My problem is that even though I live in a bubble with 100% vaccination rate among my relatives and friends (most of our kids are older), I can't quite make peace with just letting the un-vax'd kill one another off. And there seems to be no middle ground.

mythrwy 5y ago
I'm curious where you get this information from. The unvaxxed won't be killing off each other at a rate much (if any) higher then the vaxed and this is clear as day right now. Numbers. What is it about this disease that is causing otherwise intelligent people to step into this reality of alternate (and untrue) facts? Even US supreme court justices. I don't mean this as an attack, it's just I don't get it.
- crakhamster01 5y ago
  Not that I agree with the parent comment's sentiment, but from the article: > Preliminary state data suggest that more than 90 percent of today’s deaths are still among unvaccinated people. Source they provided: https://dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-status.aspx https://dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-sta... From the numbers, it seems fairly clear that this virus is much more likely to cause death amongst the unvaccinated - unless I'm misinterpreting.
  - hammock 5y ago
    Do you know what the death rate is today, among either group (vaccinated or unvaccinated)? Your link is pre-omicron, by the way.
    - mythrwy 5y ago
      https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/new-big-data-study-of-145-countries https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/new-big-data-study-of-145...
      - majormajor 5y ago
        All I see there is poorly-presented correlations that ignore a constantly changing environment. Looks like someone picking and choosing numbers to support the position they want to take, while ignoring all the other data and evidence that disagrees. Where I live, in California, there has been a months-long-and-holding-steady trend that vaccinated people have much lower cases per capita and much, MUCH lower deaths per capita. Total cases went up when we relaxed restrictions which coincided with when vaccines were widespread. That's not the same as vaccinations causing those higher total case numbers! Now total case numbers are going up again due to seasonal factors + omicron having a lot of mutations; it's too early to say just yet exactly how the vax/unvax per-capita numbers will look for this wave when it's over. As of Dec 26, it was tracking pretty similarly, though[0]... it seems to blow up that dude's case: many fewer vaccination doses are being given now than during the last big waves! EDIT: here are the money bits that I would need to see really compelling evidence to believe are coincidental/misinterpreted/etc: * From December 20, 2021 to December 26, 2021, unvaccinated people were 3.9 times more likely to get COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people. * From December 13, 2021 to December 19, 2021, unvaccinated people were 10.1 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people. * From December 6, 2021 to December 12, 2021, unvaccinated people were 16.6 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people. Transmission, severity, and death, all. And that's after the omicron variant reached the state, especially for transmission, though admittedly before it has peaked (it possibly hasn't even peaked yet, still). [0] https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/#postvax-status https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/#postvax-status
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        Just mentioning, but 30 october is still pre-omicron in many areas
  - mythrwy 5y ago
    "Killing each other off" indicates mass die off. Are we seeing mass die off? Given that fully vaxxed places are blowing up in case numbers, the vax obviously isn't stopping transmission much if at all right now. Many more people are vaxxed then not right now. So if you are unvaxed and infected on a trip to the store who most likely gave it to you? A vaxxed person or an unvaxxed person? "Unvaxxed killing each other off" is a hysterical take and inaccurate.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      I don’t know if an average of 1500 deaths a day counts as “mass die off” or not, but it kind of feels like it does.
      - chrismcb 5y ago
        You know that precovid about 8000 people died each day in the USA?
        TaylorAlexander 5y ago
        Sure. So an increase of 20% every day from a single cause is significant.
      - tata71 5y ago
        "That's not even a 9/11!"
      - mythrwy 5y ago
        If you had a flock of a million birds and sixty of them died and you wrote a thesis with the term "mass die off" you would be laughed out of the room. According to NatGeo "mass die off" is 90% of the population. I'd be alarmed at 6% die off in humans and not even be posting on the topic, but we are at less then 1%. For the unvaxxed. "Killing each other off" just doesn't fit here.
      - walterbell 5y ago
        In some countries, there was no major difference in annual All-Cause deaths between 2020 and prior years, which suggested that some deaths (with? of?) Covid were accelerated by a few months, but would have happened even without Covid due to existing ailments/co-morbidities. Some countries reported more all-cause deaths for 2020. Some states/countries sent Covid-infected patients into nursing homes, which did not help.
  - walterbell 5y ago
    You're aware that "unvaccinated" includes the vaccinated < 14 days after 2nd shot? UK numbers show that only 1% of Covid-recovered people are reinfected, which is why the EU pass equated recovery with vaccination (which does not prevent infection or transmission). It would be more accurate if US hospital data was separated into: Fully vax Partly vax Unvax + Covid-recovered Unvax + Covid-naive
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
burrows 5y ago
> I can't quite make peace with just letting the un-vax'd kill one another off. Why?
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  Most of the unvaxxed are in places without access to vaccines and those populations will continue to be a source of new variants. Delta and Omicron both came from places/times that had very limited access to vaccines. If someone in the US continues to reject vaccination, I don't know what to do about it at this point. But there's big populations that haven't been vaccinated because they haven't had a chance. It's crucial to give them that chance.
  - burrows 5y ago
    People should put more energy/money into getting vaccines to people who want them but don’t have access to them? Why?
    - kevinmchugh 5y ago
      Poor people in other countries are still people
      - burrows 5y ago
        People are people. This tautology doesn’t inform me of anything.
    - harlanlewis 5y ago
      Aside from basic humanitarianism, I'd really like to drop the word "mutations" from the "should my kid see his grandparents" discussion. I only get to do that if we apply public health solutions to public health problems, though.
      - burrows 5y ago
        People who are not you should spent money so your kid can see his grandparents?
xyzzyz 5y ago
Are you at peace with motorcycle riders? They also die at disproportionate rates. Try to think about unvaccinated as motorcycle riders: living and risking death the way they enjoy it.
- Blueskytech 5y ago
  This is a great analogy, I’m going to use this moving forward.
- analog31 5y ago
  Do you mean trained, licensed, experienced, and law abiding motorcycle riders, acting on reliable information? It's certainly a good question. We do place limits on risking death in our society. I don't know if it can be based on objective criteria. We don't let people drive cars without seat belts, or attend school without certain vaccinations. Widespread exposure to a disease of the nature of COVID, under a flood of misinformation, had exactly zero advocates two years ago. I don't have an answer, and was deliberately being a bit vague about whether I'm at peace with it or not. I'm willing to leave it at being on the fence.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Motorcycles would probably not have been accepted were they invented yesterday. They've been grandfathered into society, like tobacco. I say this as a licensed motorcycle rider.
  - analog31 5y ago
    I'm a bicyclist, same deal, except no license. There are a lot of people out there who believe that riding a bike on public roads is unacceptably risky.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      Yeah. I used to ride bikes (bicycles) in some super dense urban areas of US for years. Got hurt more on bicycles than on my motorcycles (my 70+ mph interstate crash on motorcycle not nearly as bad as getting whacked on bicycle by a valet going 10mph in downtown Chicago!) Bicyclist probably get way more injuries per mile than motorcyclists. It's risky!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
refurb 5y ago
This is bizarre. You really think the un-vaccinated will “kill one another off”? Most likely they’ll get the disease, completely recover and move on.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  It comes from a disbelief in natural immunity that is more prevalent in the US. I believe it’s due to our policy of not accommodating prior cases of COVID on vaccination records, unlike countries with more sophisticated record-keeping. It may also be due to what I perceive to be a culture preference for premium manufactured solutions in this wealthier, highly industrialized country (c.f. our relationship with health food vs. healthy eating.) If you believe prior cases of COVID don’t affect your survival rate in subsequent cases, and that there will be an infinite number of similarly deadly successive variants, then you conclude that most unvaccinated people will eventually get the variant that kills them.
  - nomel 5y ago
    > then you conclude that most unvaccinated people will eventually get the variant that kills them. I think this makes three large assumptions: 1. That natural infection doesn't result in durable immunity. This appears to be, unquestionably, not true [1]. 2. Those that are unvaccinated will not get a natural infection. This is exceedingly unlikely, assuming they're living normal lives. 3. Vaccines will be constantly updated. This appears to be true, with a large time delay (see omicron vaccine being worked on now). 1: https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...
- analog31 5y ago
  I appreciate the comment, forgive my late response. I agree that "kill one another off" was a bit hyperbolic, but it was past the edit window before I noticed that it was being genuinely misunderstood. All I meant was what would seem to be happening: People exposing one another to a communicable disease with a death rate of X. I was arguably using the wrong terminology for the magnitude of X. Whether a death rate of X is acceptable or not may depend on social acceptance of the cause, the visibility of the cause (plane crashes always make the news, suicides don't) social class, etc. This is evident in the use of analogies within this sub thread, as a way of trying to make sense of the issue.

mythrwy 5y ago

I'm curious where you get this information from. The unvaxxed won't be killing off each other at a rate much (if any) higher then the vaxed and this is clear as day right now. Numbers. What is it about this disease that is causing otherwise intelligent people to step into this reality of alternate (and untrue) facts? Even US supreme court justices. I don't mean this as an attack, it's just I don't get it.

crakhamster01 5y ago
Not that I agree with the parent comment's sentiment, but from the article: > Preliminary state data suggest that more than 90 percent of today’s deaths are still among unvaccinated people. Source they provided: https://dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-status.aspx https://dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-sta... From the numbers, it seems fairly clear that this virus is much more likely to cause death amongst the unvaccinated - unless I'm misinterpreting.
- hammock 5y ago
  Do you know what the death rate is today, among either group (vaccinated or unvaccinated)? Your link is pre-omicron, by the way.
  - mythrwy 5y ago
    https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/new-big-data-study-of-145-countries https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/new-big-data-study-of-145...
    - majormajor 5y ago
      All I see there is poorly-presented correlations that ignore a constantly changing environment. Looks like someone picking and choosing numbers to support the position they want to take, while ignoring all the other data and evidence that disagrees. Where I live, in California, there has been a months-long-and-holding-steady trend that vaccinated people have much lower cases per capita and much, MUCH lower deaths per capita. Total cases went up when we relaxed restrictions which coincided with when vaccines were widespread. That's not the same as vaccinations causing those higher total case numbers! Now total case numbers are going up again due to seasonal factors + omicron having a lot of mutations; it's too early to say just yet exactly how the vax/unvax per-capita numbers will look for this wave when it's over. As of Dec 26, it was tracking pretty similarly, though[0]... it seems to blow up that dude's case: many fewer vaccination doses are being given now than during the last big waves! EDIT: here are the money bits that I would need to see really compelling evidence to believe are coincidental/misinterpreted/etc: * From December 20, 2021 to December 26, 2021, unvaccinated people were 3.9 times more likely to get COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people. * From December 13, 2021 to December 19, 2021, unvaccinated people were 10.1 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people. * From December 6, 2021 to December 12, 2021, unvaccinated people were 16.6 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people. Transmission, severity, and death, all. And that's after the omicron variant reached the state, especially for transmission, though admittedly before it has peaked (it possibly hasn't even peaked yet, still). [0] https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/#postvax-status https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/#postvax-status
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Just mentioning, but 30 october is still pre-omicron in many areas
- mythrwy 5y ago
  "Killing each other off" indicates mass die off. Are we seeing mass die off? Given that fully vaxxed places are blowing up in case numbers, the vax obviously isn't stopping transmission much if at all right now. Many more people are vaxxed then not right now. So if you are unvaxed and infected on a trip to the store who most likely gave it to you? A vaxxed person or an unvaxxed person? "Unvaxxed killing each other off" is a hysterical take and inaccurate.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    I don’t know if an average of 1500 deaths a day counts as “mass die off” or not, but it kind of feels like it does.
    - chrismcb 5y ago
      You know that precovid about 8000 people died each day in the USA?
      - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
        Sure. So an increase of 20% every day from a single cause is significant.
    - tata71 5y ago
      "That's not even a 9/11!"
    - mythrwy 5y ago
      If you had a flock of a million birds and sixty of them died and you wrote a thesis with the term "mass die off" you would be laughed out of the room. According to NatGeo "mass die off" is 90% of the population. I'd be alarmed at 6% die off in humans and not even be posting on the topic, but we are at less then 1%. For the unvaxxed. "Killing each other off" just doesn't fit here.
    - walterbell 5y ago
      In some countries, there was no major difference in annual All-Cause deaths between 2020 and prior years, which suggested that some deaths (with? of?) Covid were accelerated by a few months, but would have happened even without Covid due to existing ailments/co-morbidities. Some countries reported more all-cause deaths for 2020. Some states/countries sent Covid-infected patients into nursing homes, which did not help.
- walterbell 5y ago
  You're aware that "unvaccinated" includes the vaccinated < 14 days after 2nd shot? UK numbers show that only 1% of Covid-recovered people are reinfected, which is why the EU pass equated recovery with vaccination (which does not prevent infection or transmission). It would be more accurate if US hospital data was separated into: Fully vax Partly vax Unvax + Covid-recovered Unvax + Covid-naive
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

burrows 5y ago

> I can't quite make peace with just letting the un-vax'd kill one another off. Why?

kevinmchugh 5y ago
Most of the unvaxxed are in places without access to vaccines and those populations will continue to be a source of new variants. Delta and Omicron both came from places/times that had very limited access to vaccines. If someone in the US continues to reject vaccination, I don't know what to do about it at this point. But there's big populations that haven't been vaccinated because they haven't had a chance. It's crucial to give them that chance.
- burrows 5y ago
  People should put more energy/money into getting vaccines to people who want them but don’t have access to them? Why?
  - kevinmchugh 5y ago
    Poor people in other countries are still people
    - burrows 5y ago
      People are people. This tautology doesn’t inform me of anything.
  - harlanlewis 5y ago
    Aside from basic humanitarianism, I'd really like to drop the word "mutations" from the "should my kid see his grandparents" discussion. I only get to do that if we apply public health solutions to public health problems, though.
    - burrows 5y ago
      People who are not you should spent money so your kid can see his grandparents?

xyzzyz 5y ago

Are you at peace with motorcycle riders? They also die at disproportionate rates. Try to think about unvaccinated as motorcycle riders: living and risking death the way they enjoy it.

Blueskytech 5y ago
This is a great analogy, I’m going to use this moving forward.
analog31 5y ago
Do you mean trained, licensed, experienced, and law abiding motorcycle riders, acting on reliable information? It's certainly a good question. We do place limits on risking death in our society. I don't know if it can be based on objective criteria. We don't let people drive cars without seat belts, or attend school without certain vaccinations. Widespread exposure to a disease of the nature of COVID, under a flood of misinformation, had exactly zero advocates two years ago. I don't have an answer, and was deliberately being a bit vague about whether I'm at peace with it or not. I'm willing to leave it at being on the fence.
notch656a 5y ago
Motorcycles would probably not have been accepted were they invented yesterday. They've been grandfathered into society, like tobacco. I say this as a licensed motorcycle rider.
- analog31 5y ago
  I'm a bicyclist, same deal, except no license. There are a lot of people out there who believe that riding a bike on public roads is unacceptably risky.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    Yeah. I used to ride bikes (bicycles) in some super dense urban areas of US for years. Got hurt more on bicycles than on my motorcycles (my 70+ mph interstate crash on motorcycle not nearly as bad as getting whacked on bicycle by a valet going 10mph in downtown Chicago!) Bicyclist probably get way more injuries per mile than motorcyclists. It's risky!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

refurb 5y ago

This is bizarre. You really think the un-vaccinated will “kill one another off”? Most likely they’ll get the disease, completely recover and move on.

1123581321 5y ago
It comes from a disbelief in natural immunity that is more prevalent in the US. I believe it’s due to our policy of not accommodating prior cases of COVID on vaccination records, unlike countries with more sophisticated record-keeping. It may also be due to what I perceive to be a culture preference for premium manufactured solutions in this wealthier, highly industrialized country (c.f. our relationship with health food vs. healthy eating.) If you believe prior cases of COVID don’t affect your survival rate in subsequent cases, and that there will be an infinite number of similarly deadly successive variants, then you conclude that most unvaccinated people will eventually get the variant that kills them.
- nomel 5y ago
  > then you conclude that most unvaccinated people will eventually get the variant that kills them. I think this makes three large assumptions: 1. That natural infection doesn't result in durable immunity. This appears to be, unquestionably, not true [1]. 2. Those that are unvaccinated will not get a natural infection. This is exceedingly unlikely, assuming they're living normal lives. 3. Vaccines will be constantly updated. This appears to be true, with a large time delay (see omicron vaccine being worked on now). 1: https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...
analog31 5y ago
I appreciate the comment, forgive my late response. I agree that "kill one another off" was a bit hyperbolic, but it was past the edit window before I noticed that it was being genuinely misunderstood. All I meant was what would seem to be happening: People exposing one another to a communicable disease with a death rate of X. I was arguably using the wrong terminology for the magnitude of X. Whether a death rate of X is acceptable or not may depend on social acceptance of the cause, the visibility of the cause (plane crashes always make the news, suicides don't) social class, etc. This is evident in the use of analogies within this sub thread, as a way of trying to make sense of the issue.