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“Latinx” is lexical imperialism
- anthk 5y agoSomeone with common sense at least. "Latin" in English works perfectly for any gender since forever.
- leephillips 5y agoYes, I’ve wondered why the wokesters didn’t use that, or the alternative latine. But this author explains it well: they use latinx to signal to each other; existing, working words don’t accomplish that.
- selimthegrim 5y agoI've heard Latine used.
- selimthegrim 5y agocf. https://tulanehullabaloo.com/57213/intersections/opinion-latinx-vs-latine/ https://tulanehullabaloo.com/57213/intersections/opinion-lat...
- BHSPitMonkey 5y agoIf you had a time machine and could rewrite the last few years of history such that "latin" took the place of "latinx", this opinion piece would be titled '"Latin" is lexical imperialism'. The "x" itself isn't the issue at hand, but rather that people feel they've been pressured to change how they identify in order to satisfy the goals of people wanting to promote the use of gender-inclusive language. There's no easy fix for that broader issue (which reads to me like a problem of building consensus around norms in society).
- sorenn111 5y agoI sincerely do not intend this observation to be overtly political, BUT I've often wondered about certain very progressive movements having their logical extremes come into conflict. In the US, there's been a movement to remove gender from aspects of language (example, preferring police officer over policeman, business person over businessman). I personally don't really care and re-examining a variety of norms and phrases for entrenched bias makes some sense to me. Romance languages have gender much more deeply ingrained in the language and present far more challenges in attempting to de-gender them. So, if the progressive attempts to respect the culture of others and be welcoming to different cultures, that can come into conflict with attempting to remove implicit bias that may (or may not) be connected with language (with the claim being that saying businessman inherently discourages non males from pursuing business). Disclaimer: I'm not very political and align myself largely with moderate democrats with some libertarian sympathies at time. I have nothing against the ideals of re-examining previously held notions for pursuits of greater equality, just an interesting conflict in my opinion with political relevance. I find it fascinating that Trump improved margins with Hispanic voters over past Republicans and I find myself wondering if it wasn't so much about him as aspects of the progressive/democratic movement.
- cfcosta 5y agoAs a Latino: it's bullshit. I'm willing to accept the changes you do to your English, it's completely fine, your language your rules. Trying to change my language is a no-no, in my opinion, and feel dehumanizing, as if my culture isn't "progressive" enough and had to be changed.
- potatoz2 5y agoThe original Latinx idea came from Latino/a non-binary people. The -x suffix is also being pushed in some Latin American countries, like Argentina, by a minority. Also note that Latino is an American English word now, and it makes sense that it'd evolve on its own independent of the original word in Spanish.
- SubiculumCode 5y ago
- javajosh 5y agoIt may be imperialism, but it's a failed attempt. I only spend my outrage on successful injustice.
- diebeforei485 5y ago> Because accuracy isn't the goal. Proponents of "Latinx" aren't speaking to us or for us. They're speaking through us—to each other. Its use is purely about signaling—not to Latin people, but to other signalers. And beneath the signal, there is hardly anything of substance at all. This is a bit like (non-native) people stating their location in their Twitter bio as "Salish lands" or "Ohlone lands" in place of Seattle or San Francisco. And yes, I think this extends to cishet people using putting gender pronouns in their name field on Zoom, etc.
- ASalazarMX 5y agoIf they really want to signal their virtue, they should call themselves AmericXns first before mangling other nationalities.
- tasogare 5y ago
- beepbooptheory 5y agoCould you explain what you mean here?
- ohCh6zos 5y ago‘Cishet’ is an imposed label to the group it describes as ‘Latinx’ is to the group it describes.
- beepbooptheory 5y agonope
- jcadam 5y agoI don't even know what a 'cishet' is, and I have no desire to learn.
- greyivy 5y ago
- dragonwriter 5y ago[flagged]
- RappingBoomer 5y agothe main thing is that we keep the political focus on race & gender etc instead of focusing on old fashioned things like progressive taxation, healthcare, worker rights & benefits, etc. The current progressive focus on race and gender is new, and new is always better.
- izacus 5y agoIt's also really amazing at dividing lower/working classes into two groups. Which makes it much harder for them to band together and push for a change in how the country treats the poorest majority.
- haunter 5y ago>the main thing is that we keep the political focus on race & gender Divide et impera. This is the biggest win of the 1% in the recent decades. Turning people against each other so they can't eat the rich.
- seph-reed 5y agoI don't think it was really intentional though. I'm pretty sure that maximizing user engagement (as social media does) leads to communities with easily defined and large borders. The border between rich and poor might be easily defined, but it isn't so large as to have a constant flow of anecdotes. The borders between races or genders are much more "daily life." And -- ultimately -- I don't think the rich are that different of humans either. I see the issue as system level, some flaw in design which makes inequalities and differences grow rather than taper out.
- testudovictoria 5y agoThey're not mutually exclusive. I would like a more progressive tax system, better healthcare for everyone, better rights for workers, and better systemic treatment of minorities and non-binary people.
- smegsicle 5y agowhat are 'binary people', and should they be offended by a term that implies that they only come in two kinds?
- 908B64B197 5y agoI get that "Hispanic" is a bad term (hello Brazil, which has nothing to do with Spain or the Spanish language) and that Latino/Latina is gendered and that in real conversation, when someone has origins in Southern America and is still in touch with that culture they'll eventually say something akin to "I'm Peruvian American" which gives me much more context (almost as if you couldn't reduce the culture and heritage of a whole continent to a single term). But would the term "Latin" be acceptable. As in Latin-America?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- leephillips 5y agoIt is acceptable, and a perfectly fine term, as far as it goes, as the OA says.
- dariusj18 5y agoLatin is fine, but the plural "Latins" is awkward Edit: Maybe it should be "Latini"
- anthk 5y ago> (hello Brazil, which has nothing to do with Spain or the Spanish language) Heh, that's good, because Portugal is part of "Hispania" since forever. Hispanic in proper terms it's related to Spain and Portugal, for any romance (Catalan, Castillian or Galician) or Basque spoken in the peninsula, not just to Spain and/or Castillian speakers. So Brazil is actually as Hispanic as Argentina. Blame Castille for appropiating themselves the term Hispania/Spain since the Middle Ages.
- 908B64B197 5y agoI didn't know that. Thanks!
- anthk 5y agohttps://wikiless.org/wiki/Hispania?lang=en https://wikiless.org/wiki/Hispania?lang=en EDIT: Also, from Camões: "Falai de castelhanos e de portugueses, porque espanhóis somos todos" Y'all talk of (the) Castillian and Portuguese (people), as we are all Spanish.
- blululu 5y agoHispanic is usually a good choice in these matters.
- notacoward 5y agoOn what do you base that statement? In my experience, many people make a pretty sharp distinction between Hispanic (being about the linguistic aspect of culture) vs Latin (being about the geographic aspect - from "Latin America"). For example, contrast Spain vs. Brazil. Treating the two as synonyms is as fraught as "Latinx" is.
- gboss 5y agoI prefer to use the grammatically correct and gender neutral latine/latines. That term seems to be embraced by Mexicans. Julieta Venegas is a proponent so is the show House of Flowers on Netflix. LatinX is just really awkward to say and doesn’t roll off the tongue in Spanish.
- BipolarCapybara 5y agoExactly this! I think non-gendered adjectives are a nice addition to Spanish and many people are starting to use it! Adding "-e" to the end of words is far more commy tham adding x to it. Latinx sounda really weird in Spanish and latine sounda way better, it also integrates netter with other parts of the language, you can say ingeniere, aliade, but ingenierx or aliadx sounds amd looks weird and ugly.
- mbg721 5y agoI'm guessing Spanish doesn't have this because it doesn't do noun declination as much, but Latin does have the concept of a "common" grammatical gender that is distinct from the neuter, for words that apply to people or animals but that aren't specifically masculine or feminine.
- yucky 5y ago>I prefer to use the grammatically correct and gender neutral latine/latines. As a Spanish speaker, can you explain to me why latine/latines is grammatically correct? Or are you trying to say it's grammatically correct in the language of the people trying to force it onto Spanish speakers?
- Asraelite 5y agoI wasn't aware "latine" was being used in Spanish. Out of curiosity, how do you decide how other words agree with it, like la/el and adjective endings?
- Krisjohn 5y agoIt's entirely possible for someone experiencing racism to be sexist. It's entirely possible for someone being oppressed from outside their community to be privileged within it. It's entirely possible for for someone to have one set of unwanted backward views that negatively affect them, while holding on to a different set of backward views that benefit them. It's also almost always true that one person does not speak for everyone they claim to represent. There is rarely an objectively correct position when it comes to race, gender, and identity. I don't see this conversation as being an exception.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]