8 ms·

I just hope that moxie's replacement is someone with as strong a reputation for fighting for the principles at stake and the ability to defend them. How many pe

by frisco 5y ago

I just hope that moxie's replacement is someone with as strong a reputation for fighting for the principles at stake and the ability to defend them. How many people could have written the Cellebrite blog post? Probably not many. The hidden pressures on Signal staff must be enormous, as likely the the world's single most valuable surveillance target.

capableweb 5y ago
> I just hope that moxie's replacement is someone with as strong a reputation for fighting for the principles at stake and the ability to defend them Yes, and who has a better reputation for fighting for principles than Brian Acton, one of the guys who made Whatsapp and subsequently sold it to the most morally correct company in the world: Facebook.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  People make mistakes. Seems to me Acton is trying to do everything he can to correct it.
  - bigiain 5y ago
    What he's been trying to do can also be interpreted as spending a few tens of millions here and there to generate PR with the goal of whitewashing his treachery when he sold out his WhatsApp userbase to Zuck and the most privacy invasive company on the planet... I'm reminded of the old gag: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? Yes, of course! Would you sleep with me for one dollar? What kind of woman do you think I am? We've already established that, now we're just haggling over the price. Acton already whored himself out to Zuck for $19billion. We've established what kind of person he is.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      That gag really shouldn't be used seriously. Doing something for instant riches is not the same as doing it for day job money.
      - TimTheTinker 5y ago
        It makes sense morally speaking. Regardless of the price, someone who sins for money is a sinner.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        There is still a huge difference between a one-time thing and an everyday action.
    - skrebbel 5y ago
      Treachery? What exactly did he owe you? Sell out, sure, but who did he betray?
- mfer 5y ago
  Acton has had an interesting road since selling WhatsApp to Facebook. That includes leaving Facebook with $850 million USD in shares on the table for leaving early and telling people to delete their Facebook accounts. Looking at what he's done tells the story of someone who learned many lessons since he sold WhatsApp.
  - armchairhacker 5y ago
    i wonder if Acton figured that WhatsApp might lose to competitors and privacy-focused people would migrate to a new app anyways, and he could do more good with almost $1 billion. And also $1 billion is quite a lot of money.
  - godelski 5y ago
    > That includes leaving Facebook with $850 million USD in shares on the table for leaving early and telling people to delete their Facebook accounts. Honestly this action was one of the things that really made me like Acton. It was more than words. Granted, he already had a few billion dollars at that point -- and I'm under the opinion that $2bn isn't much different from $1bn (except bragging rights) (current work 2.8bn[0]) -- but it shows that money isn't his (only) motivating factor. It is also pretty hard to tell people to leave something you built. [0] https://www.forbes.com/profile/brian-acton/?sh=13ea0bdb5cfc https://www.forbes.com/profile/brian-acton/?sh=13ea0bdb5cfc
    - boeingUH60 5y ago
      WhatsApp’s other co-founder, Jan Koum, also reportedly [1] walked away from hundreds of millions by leaving Facebook due to disagreements. Turns out he was still employed [2] despite saying it was time to “move on”, in order to get his remaining money...lol 1 - https://fortune.com/2018/05/01/jan-koum-whatsapp-facebook/ https://fortune.com/2018/05/01/jan-koum-whatsapp-facebook/ 2 - https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/whatsapps-jan-koum-left-facebook-but-is-still-showing-up-to-vest-stock.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/whatsapps-jan-koum-left-face...
- fragmede 5y ago
  I mean, he walked away from $800 million in Facebook stock because his belief in privacy wouldn't allow him to continue working on WhatsApp, post-acquisition. I think that speaks louder than selling WhatsApp in the first place.
- bawolff 5y ago
  There are two types of people in the world: those who sell their start ups for 16 billion, and those that dont have startups people are willing to pay 16 billion for. I am very doubtful that very many people here would turn down that sort of money if given the opportunity. Its very easy to wax poetic about virtue when nobody is trying to tempt you.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > I am very doubtful that very many people here would turn down that sort of money if given the opportunity. Its very easy to wax poetic about virtue when nobody is trying to tempt you. Indeed, not a lot of people would be able to turn that down. Moxie? That's one of them, that I like to believe they would though.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  It would be awfully hard to turn down nineteen billion dollars for the sale. The social ills caused by Facebook were also a little less undeniable in 2014. Since the sale he has criticized the hell out of Facebook, too. Sure, he isn't a martyr. But there are way way way worse behaviors in the valley.
xvector 5y ago
This is my biggest concern. Hopefully the replacement will truly care about user privacy and have the balls to fight for it, even if it means going up against large (governmental) organizations.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Adding MobileCoin to Signal really changed my perceptions about just how principled the Signal foundation really is. I have a lot of respect for much of Moxie’s work, but the MobileCoin thing is still a head-scratcher.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  Why so? Moxie helped design MobileCoin. Besides, his recent post on web3 lays it bare what he thinks of it. MobileCoin, in time, I hope grows up to be a credible alternative to Facebook's USDP (Diem), like how Signal is to WhatsApp. I don't think its inclusion a head-scratcher at all. If anything, I hope it serves its purpose well, and isn't unfairly regulated to oblivion.
  - phgn 5y ago
    I got the impression that his web3 post [0] only talks about token incentives, DAOs and other decentralisation for decentralisation's sake. There's no mention of MobileCoin, which I gather he just sees as tool to facilitate anonymous payments (it's a token on top of Stellar). [0] https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
    - gojomo 5y ago
      Though MobileCoin may have borrowed a consensus mechanism from Stellar, I've seen no indication that it's a token on the Stellar chain.
      - phgn 5y ago
        You're right, sorry I have misread this then. According to Wikipedia, MobileCoin uses its own blockchain based on mechanics from Stellar and Monero [0]. That also makes a lot more sense technically, and explains the supposed 4 years of development [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246
autoexec 5y ago
I'm guessing it's why they started collecting and keeping user data
goodpoint 5y ago
You mention "principles" but Signal is yet another walled garden. It does not protect metadata. It requires a phone number to work. The servers are centralized and it does not do federation by design. Development is centralized and not community-driven. Respectfully, please don't paint Signal as some champion of Internet freedom and privacy.
bfelbo 5y ago
For anyone curious, this is the blog post: https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ It’s a fun read.

by frisco 5y ago

capableweb 5y ago

> I just hope that moxie's replacement is someone with as strong a reputation for fighting for the principles at stake and the ability to defend them Yes, and who has a better reputation for fighting for principles than Brian Acton, one of the guys who made Whatsapp and subsequently sold it to the most morally correct company in the world: Facebook.

skrebbel 5y ago
People make mistakes. Seems to me Acton is trying to do everything he can to correct it.
- bigiain 5y ago
  What he's been trying to do can also be interpreted as spending a few tens of millions here and there to generate PR with the goal of whitewashing his treachery when he sold out his WhatsApp userbase to Zuck and the most privacy invasive company on the planet... I'm reminded of the old gag: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? Yes, of course! Would you sleep with me for one dollar? What kind of woman do you think I am? We've already established that, now we're just haggling over the price. Acton already whored himself out to Zuck for $19billion. We've established what kind of person he is.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    That gag really shouldn't be used seriously. Doing something for instant riches is not the same as doing it for day job money.
    - TimTheTinker 5y ago
      It makes sense morally speaking. Regardless of the price, someone who sins for money is a sinner.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        There is still a huge difference between a one-time thing and an everyday action.
  - skrebbel 5y ago
    Treachery? What exactly did he owe you? Sell out, sure, but who did he betray?
mfer 5y ago
Acton has had an interesting road since selling WhatsApp to Facebook. That includes leaving Facebook with $850 million USD in shares on the table for leaving early and telling people to delete their Facebook accounts. Looking at what he's done tells the story of someone who learned many lessons since he sold WhatsApp.
- armchairhacker 5y ago
  i wonder if Acton figured that WhatsApp might lose to competitors and privacy-focused people would migrate to a new app anyways, and he could do more good with almost $1 billion. And also $1 billion is quite a lot of money.
- godelski 5y ago
  > That includes leaving Facebook with $850 million USD in shares on the table for leaving early and telling people to delete their Facebook accounts. Honestly this action was one of the things that really made me like Acton. It was more than words. Granted, he already had a few billion dollars at that point -- and I'm under the opinion that $2bn isn't much different from $1bn (except bragging rights) (current work 2.8bn[0]) -- but it shows that money isn't his (only) motivating factor. It is also pretty hard to tell people to leave something you built. [0] https://www.forbes.com/profile/brian-acton/?sh=13ea0bdb5cfc https://www.forbes.com/profile/brian-acton/?sh=13ea0bdb5cfc
  - boeingUH60 5y ago
    WhatsApp’s other co-founder, Jan Koum, also reportedly [1] walked away from hundreds of millions by leaving Facebook due to disagreements. Turns out he was still employed [2] despite saying it was time to “move on”, in order to get his remaining money...lol 1 - https://fortune.com/2018/05/01/jan-koum-whatsapp-facebook/ https://fortune.com/2018/05/01/jan-koum-whatsapp-facebook/ 2 - https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/whatsapps-jan-koum-left-facebook-but-is-still-showing-up-to-vest-stock.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/whatsapps-jan-koum-left-face...
fragmede 5y ago
I mean, he walked away from $800 million in Facebook stock because his belief in privacy wouldn't allow him to continue working on WhatsApp, post-acquisition. I think that speaks louder than selling WhatsApp in the first place.
bawolff 5y ago
There are two types of people in the world: those who sell their start ups for 16 billion, and those that dont have startups people are willing to pay 16 billion for. I am very doubtful that very many people here would turn down that sort of money if given the opportunity. Its very easy to wax poetic about virtue when nobody is trying to tempt you.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > I am very doubtful that very many people here would turn down that sort of money if given the opportunity. Its very easy to wax poetic about virtue when nobody is trying to tempt you. Indeed, not a lot of people would be able to turn that down. Moxie? That's one of them, that I like to believe they would though.
UncleMeat 5y ago
It would be awfully hard to turn down nineteen billion dollars for the sale. The social ills caused by Facebook were also a little less undeniable in 2014. Since the sale he has criticized the hell out of Facebook, too. Sure, he isn't a martyr. But there are way way way worse behaviors in the valley.

xvector 5y ago

This is my biggest concern. Hopefully the replacement will truly care about user privacy and have the balls to fight for it, even if it means going up against large (governmental) organizations.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Adding MobileCoin to Signal really changed my perceptions about just how principled the Signal foundation really is. I have a lot of respect for much of Moxie’s work, but the MobileCoin thing is still a head-scratcher.

ignoramous 5y ago
Why so? Moxie helped design MobileCoin. Besides, his recent post on web3 lays it bare what he thinks of it. MobileCoin, in time, I hope grows up to be a credible alternative to Facebook's USDP (Diem), like how Signal is to WhatsApp. I don't think its inclusion a head-scratcher at all. If anything, I hope it serves its purpose well, and isn't unfairly regulated to oblivion.
- phgn 5y ago
  I got the impression that his web3 post [0] only talks about token incentives, DAOs and other decentralisation for decentralisation's sake. There's no mention of MobileCoin, which I gather he just sees as tool to facilitate anonymous payments (it's a token on top of Stellar). [0] https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
  - gojomo 5y ago
    Though MobileCoin may have borrowed a consensus mechanism from Stellar, I've seen no indication that it's a token on the Stellar chain.
    - phgn 5y ago
      You're right, sorry I have misread this then. According to Wikipedia, MobileCoin uses its own blockchain based on mechanics from Stellar and Monero [0]. That also makes a lot more sense technically, and explains the supposed 4 years of development [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246

autoexec 5y ago

I'm guessing it's why they started collecting and keeping user data

goodpoint 5y ago

You mention "principles" but Signal is yet another walled garden. It does not protect metadata. It requires a phone number to work. The servers are centralized and it does not do federation by design. Development is centralized and not community-driven. Respectfully, please don't paint Signal as some champion of Internet freedom and privacy.

bfelbo 5y ago

For anyone curious, this is the blog post: https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ It’s a fun read.