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7. Primary use-value of crypto is to facilitate payments for ramsomware and other illegal activity.

cletus 5y ago
In the early days of crypto, this is what kept me away: the clear use case for illegal purposes (Silk Road anyone?). What I didn't realize was the big early driver was to transfer wealth out of China. China has strict capital controls and China's wealthy don't want their entire wealth to be at the behest of the CCP. There are limited reasons you can move money out of China. Bitcoin mining was a way around this. That's technically illegal too but not in the same category as, say, ransomware, drugs, etc. Anyway, I don't think the illegal use cases really matter. After all, cash can be used this way too. Sure cash can't be used for certain things crypto can be but crypto isn't fundamentally immoral any more than money is.
- lmohseni 5y ago
  IMO, Proof of work crypto is fundamentally immoral because of the externalized environmental costs.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    Virtually all electricity has externalized environmental cost. Even electricity used to power a hospital. I agree this externality is immoral, not the hospital or PoW itself.
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      You don't see any ethical difference between powering a hospital versus thousands of video cards to solve a useless puzzle? None? Not even a little tiny bit? What about the fact that those video cards use HUNDREDS of times more power than even a relatively busy hospital?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - notch656a 5y ago
        I see the ethical issue as being externalities from the electricity, not the hospital or puzzle.
        timeon 5y ago
        But resources are not limitless.
        notch656a 5y ago
    - timeon 5y ago
      Are you comparing utility of hospital with proof of waste?
      - notch656a 5y ago
  - rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
    You can think that, but you are looking at the wrong side of the equation. The path down this thought process is being a bully -- "I don't want you to use electricity in that way". That is just your preference. Let the miners use power how they like, cleanly. Issue as many carbon taxes as you like to the producers if you feel it needs a finger on the scale. The miners don't tell you to stop wasting power on xmas trees. Using energy is fine. Producing unclean energy is immoral. So is driving an internal combustion vehicle. We must get our power generation efficient and clean as possible.
    - timeon 5y ago
      > We must get our power generation efficient and clean as possible. The thing is that, even if, it is not going to happen soon. And Energy for Bitcoin is out of proportion if you compare it with anything you have mentioned. Bitcoin wants to replace something with less efficient way. Bitcoin is backward thinking.
      - rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
        Not understanding Bitcoin is backward thinking. Bitcoin is an incentive to move to clean power. You can't stop it, you can't stop people mining it, you can't stop people using it. Complaining about the energy is like complaining about the moon. Nothing you say or do can make it go away. So get people to generate it cleanly.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
howdydoo 5y ago
12% of the USA's economy is illegal activity. [1] 0.5% of Bitcoin's volume is illegal activity. [2] When will this crime meme finally die? [1]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big-underground-economy-america.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big... [2]: https://ciphertrace.com/2020-year-end-cryptocurrency-crime-and-anti-money-laundering-report/ https://ciphertrace.com/2020-year-end-cryptocurrency-crime-a...
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  You need to recheck your numbers. [1] says the number is about 7% for the US. [2] is > 10% for Bitcoin before I stopped adding.
  - howdydoo 5y ago
    [2] says: > illicit transactions making up less than 0.5% of Bitcoin’s yearly volume in 2020 No adding required. [1] throws a lot of numbers including/excluding different categories of drugs/etc. You can squabble about 7% or 12%, but the point is it's an order of magnitude higher than 0.5%.

In the early days of crypto, this is what kept me away: the clear use case for illegal purposes (Silk Road anyone?). What I didn't realize was the big early driver was to transfer wealth out of China. China has strict capital controls and China's wealthy don't want their entire wealth to be at the behest of the CCP. There are limited reasons you can move money out of China. Bitcoin mining was a way around this. That's technically illegal too but not in the same category as, say, ransomware, drugs, etc. Anyway, I don't think the illegal use cases really matter. After all, cash can be used this way too. Sure cash can't be used for certain things crypto can be but crypto isn't fundamentally immoral any more than money is.

lmohseni 5y ago
IMO, Proof of work crypto is fundamentally immoral because of the externalized environmental costs.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Virtually all electricity has externalized environmental cost. Even electricity used to power a hospital. I agree this externality is immoral, not the hospital or PoW itself.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    You don't see any ethical difference between powering a hospital versus thousands of video cards to solve a useless puzzle? None? Not even a little tiny bit? What about the fact that those video cards use HUNDREDS of times more power than even a relatively busy hospital?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - notch656a 5y ago
      I see the ethical issue as being externalities from the electricity, not the hospital or puzzle.
      - timeon 5y ago
        But resources are not limitless.
        notch656a 5y ago
  - timeon 5y ago
    Are you comparing utility of hospital with proof of waste?
    - notch656a 5y ago
- rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
  You can think that, but you are looking at the wrong side of the equation. The path down this thought process is being a bully -- "I don't want you to use electricity in that way". That is just your preference. Let the miners use power how they like, cleanly. Issue as many carbon taxes as you like to the producers if you feel it needs a finger on the scale. The miners don't tell you to stop wasting power on xmas trees. Using energy is fine. Producing unclean energy is immoral. So is driving an internal combustion vehicle. We must get our power generation efficient and clean as possible.
  - timeon 5y ago
    > We must get our power generation efficient and clean as possible. The thing is that, even if, it is not going to happen soon. And Energy for Bitcoin is out of proportion if you compare it with anything you have mentioned. Bitcoin wants to replace something with less efficient way. Bitcoin is backward thinking.
    - rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
      Not understanding Bitcoin is backward thinking. Bitcoin is an incentive to move to clean power. You can't stop it, you can't stop people mining it, you can't stop people using it. Complaining about the energy is like complaining about the moon. Nothing you say or do can make it go away. So get people to generate it cleanly.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

howdydoo 5y ago

12% of the USA's economy is illegal activity. [1] 0.5% of Bitcoin's volume is illegal activity. [2] When will this crime meme finally die? [1]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big-underground-economy-america.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big... [2]: https://ciphertrace.com/2020-year-end-cryptocurrency-crime-and-anti-money-laundering-report/ https://ciphertrace.com/2020-year-end-cryptocurrency-crime-a...

vorpalhex 5y ago
You need to recheck your numbers. [1] says the number is about 7% for the US. [2] is > 10% for Bitcoin before I stopped adding.
- howdydoo 5y ago
  [2] says: > illicit transactions making up less than 0.5% of Bitcoin’s yearly volume in 2020 No adding required. [1] throws a lot of numbers including/excluding different categories of drugs/etc. You can squabble about 7% or 12%, but the point is it's an order of magnitude higher than 0.5%.