5 ms·

> Say what you will, but if the basic trust in doctors and healthcare is lost, how would people get tested, and how can you trust any statistics from there?! T

> Say what you will, but if the basic trust in doctors and healthcare is lost, how would people get tested, and how can you trust any statistics from there?! To me this is a huge problem: some doctors are gaming the system and providing fake covid certificates or vaccination stamps. What else could doctors be hiding from me in other situations ? My mom said it was a war crime to deliver fake covid vaccination stamps (I can see how a doctor doing that would see himself as a resistant so good luck having a healthy debate about that). It breaks something fundamental. In a way I hope most of them did it for the money rather than out of anti-vax/anti-system. On a related note I was stuck for three days in a house during this summer's flood (floor level flooded, second okay, I stayed at the third) . I had food, water and was okay. At some point I could have left the house to be relocated in a roofed sport centre or a school with other people but I decided against it in fear of getting covid in a crowded space. It was before omicron. Maybe I overreacted but I didn't want to take any risks.

thematrixturtle 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  > If vaccination does not meaningfully prevent transmission, as increasingly seems to be case with Omicron, faking vaccination harms only the fake recipient. keyword being if and meaningfully. Anyway that fake recipient may still need top notch expensive care to stay alive if he doesn't get mild covid. Are you suggesting that he should pay in full for those care since you state it only harms the fake recipient ? Also, it increasingly seems that a third dose significantly increases protection against omicron.
  - thematrixturtle 5y ago
    Yes, I think that would be an excellent idea, and quite a few countries are in fact moving in that direction. Early evidence is that the protection against transmission from the booster appears to be quite fleeting (weeks, not months), so the main reason to vaccinate is really to protect yourself.
  - toolz 5y ago
    The unvaccinated haven't done nearly the damage policy has to hospitals. The US has like 6-7% fewer staffed beds than before the pandemic and has stupidly decided to fire unvaccinated healthcare workers that have almost assuredly developed their immunity naturally. People seem to forget much of the world still has no access to vaccines. Every person being vaccinated with natural immunity is someone without immunity missing that vaccine.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Yup. California is now changing the rules to allow Covid positive healthcare works to come back without any quarantine. https://www.kcra.com/article/nurses-react-covid-19-protocols-health-care-workers/38702838 https://www.kcra.com/article/nurses-react-covid-19-protocols... So is France and Canada.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      What does natural immunity mean with new variants and when it lasts from 90 days to six months? Are these people going to pay to get their antibody titers checked every week? If they incubate a new variant themselves are they willing to be held personally liable?
      - toolz 5y ago
        >What does natural immunity mean with new variants and when it lasts from 90 days to six months? I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you saying that antibodies last 90 days to 6 months? Firstly that's incorrect as antibodies seem to be detectable even after 8 months in the study I'm remembering, but more importantly your immune system is made up of many parts and antibodies are not the primary response to coronaviruses since the antibodies do fade rather quickly. Instead the many other parts of our immune system are extremely long lived with other coronaviruses and there's no reason to expect they won't be extremely long lived with covid. In fact the reason you see so many asymptomatic cases with covid is because of preexisting natural immunity to similar coronaviruses. > If they incubate a new variant themselves are they willing to be held personally liable? Are you suggesting if we had the tech (we don't) to trace down the exact host where a virus mutates into a recognizably different strain that host should be liable? I think you should really reflect on exactly that would mean and exactly how harmful that would be for society. You do realize every single person in the entire world will either die in the next couple of years or without a doubt be attacked by covid, right? That means you'd basically be putting up a lottery system to see who gets to lose for being "ground zero" for a new variant mutation. This would be completely pointless and would serve only to hurt people with zero chance of helping anyone.
- acdha 5y ago
  Vaccination continues to reduce transmission (less for Omicron than before, but it was known never to be be 100%) but it also significantly reduces the number of people with serious cases (still quite successful even with Omicron). That means there’s a big side effect from people not getting vaccinated: the healthcare system has finite capacity and when it’s full of people who wouldn’t be there if they’d been vaccinated, that means space isn’t available for anyone who has some other problem and the healthcare system is losing a lot of expensively trained people due to stress. It is extra hard on them to watch people die for avoidable reasons and many nurses, doctors, etc. have left at least temporarily due to burnout.
  - robbiep 5y ago
    Not sure where the early downvotes are coming from but this is correct: my state has 95% 2 dose vaccination of adults and currently 150 ventilated patients- half of those are unvaccinated. So 5% of the population represents 50% of ICU ventilator capacity.
    - toolz 5y ago
      While I'm sure the unvaccinated represent more, it's also true that many reporting stats considered double vaccinated to be in the unvaccinated category if they are eligible for a booster and haven't had them.
      - refurb 5y ago
        Yup. I’ve seen similar gaming. Of the people who died in Singapore, 5/8th weren’t “fully vaccinated”, so they lump in the ones with one dose and those who haven’t met some predefined period of time post-2nd dose.
      - robbiep 5y ago
        This is not the case where I live, work and practice medicine
      - acdha 5y ago
        I don't know which sites you're seeing but the ones I use tend to break that out as “partially vaccinated” or “fully vaccinated” vs “fully vaccinated with booster” — which is good since the evidence has shown that there's a big difference between the waning protection against infection (i.e. neutralizing antibodies) versus protection against severe cases (i.e. T cells) even for partial vaccination. https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/?itid=sf_coronavirus_sn_covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses_5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-va... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccina... https://covidactnow.org/ https://covidactnow.org/ uses “at least one dose” for the national map but breaks out their state-level displays as “1+” and “fully vaccinated”.
- 542458 5y ago
  1) I’m not aware of any research that shows near-zero reduction in transmission rate. As far as I’m aware, research shows that vaccination rate reductions in transmissiveness that are less than previous strains, but dramatically better than nothing. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v... > For households with the Omicron VOC, the corresponding OR for infection for unvaccinated individuals was 1.04 (CI: 0.87-1.24) and 0.54 (CI: 0.40-0.71) for booster-vaccinated individuals. 2) Keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed and keeping people from dying is a legitimate goal of vaccination, even in the absence of any reduction in transmission. The vaccine remains effective at this. Hospitalization rates for the unvaccinated are leagues higher than the vaccinated.
  - yorwba 5y ago
    > As far as I’m aware, research shows that a two-dose vaccination rate provides disappointing reductions in transmissiveness - but far, far better than nothing. The paper you quote shows two-dose vaccination (or previous infection) increasing the secondary attack rate from 29% (unvaccinated) to 32%, i.e. worse than nothing. Only a booster reduces it back to 25%. My guess is that the increase is not due to direct biochemical effects of vaccination/prior infection, but due to people assuming that they're protected and taking fewer precautions. Demographic differences might also play a role.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Nope, nope nope, not at all. > After adjustment for confounders, we found that in households with the Delta VOC, the OR of infection was 2.31 (95% confidence interval (CI) 2.09-2.55) for unvaccinated individuals and 0.38 (CI: 0.32-0.46) for booster-vaccinated individuals when compared to fully vaccinated potential secondary cases. For households with the Omicron VOC, the corresponding OR for infection for unvaccinated individuals was 1.04 (CI: 0.87-1.24) and 0.54 (CI: 0.40-0.71) for booster-vaccinated individuals. For delta, two dose vaccination helps. For Omicron, there is no statistically significant effect of two dose vaccination. In no case is there an increase from two dose vaccination of attack rates.
dudul 5y ago
A war crime? For which ongoing war?
- Tsiklon 5y ago
  I believe they meant to express the idea that such a scenario is beyond morally reprehensible, so as to liken it morally to a war crime.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    In her head it's more like "these people are fighting the state and are enemy of the state and its citizens".
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  The one on Covid. See Macron last year's speech https://www.bbc.com/news/av/51917380 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/51917380 Of course my mom is not asking for a war tribunal to prosecute people. She's talking about the gravity of the facts.
  - dudul 5y ago
    This is stupid and insulting for people who experienced a true war. Does she know what wartime is like? Because I do and Ican tell you this has nothing to do with what we have right now.
    - johnchristopher 5y ago
      > This is stupid and insulting for people who experienced a true war. Does she know what wartime is like? Because I do and Ican tell you this has nothing to do with what we have right now. What's stupid is your insistence on trying to imply that a remark she made about the gravity of some acts is the same as her saying it's wartime. And for what it's worth, yes she actually does know what wartime is. I wasn't aware it was a requirement to be allowed to express one's concerns about the behavior of some people though and to relate it to despicable behaviors she saw first hand. This holier-thanthou attitude is very well misplaced. It's also significant you choose to single her out on this and say nothing of Macron who made a war time speech. And Macron has way more influence than my mom.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
All this hate for the medical profession. You have people who work long hours, bear huge responsibility and are treated like shit for a pathetic salary. I honestly don't even know why they keep doing it. You get less crazies as a prison guard and they have better security.
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  What hate ? Most people who hate on the medical profession are antivax. There has been violent actions taken against the medical workers in vaccination and testing centers in Belgium and France.
- reacharavindh 5y ago
  Lack of trust because of misdeeds does not mean one hates all Doctor and nurses who work their ass off to literally save people’s lives. It is not binary. There is a difference between - will I go to the hospital if I get hurt or have a medical need versus do I trust the hospital to not fleece for some care I may not need. The fact that this question needs to be asked is a result of the lack of trust. If there is any profession where there should have been zero tolerance for malpractice, it is this noble medical profession.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  In the US it is the accumulation of years of frustration with our for-profit system. Insurance at a minimum feels like a parasite, and then on top of that it is the personification of byzantine bureaucratic mazes and arbitrary rulings. Insurance is also fragile, where an employee that needs their healthcare for something like cancer is then exposed to be laid off and lose coverage. When you need it most, you are subjected to exploitation and fraud: surprise billing, lack of coverage, and doctors that feign ignorance about costs and complexities. Meanwhile anyone that knows how billing professionals knows: #1 rule is bill when you can, the #2 rule is to bill as much as possible. The end result is a lack of faith in our system, where it is just a system of profiteering and exploitation. They work long hours because they will eventually make a lot of money (my friend is a cardiologist, not even a surgeon, and makes 800k per year in the US) and get huge amounts of prestige. Doctors are the only nerd profession that is cool and sexy. And the number of hours is actually less than it used to be back in the day. Of course, you don't get as many perks from the drug/device company reps anymore, or have they figured out how to give doctors steak dinners and golf junkets again?

thematrixturtle 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
johnchristopher 5y ago
> If vaccination does not meaningfully prevent transmission, as increasingly seems to be case with Omicron, faking vaccination harms only the fake recipient. keyword being if and meaningfully. Anyway that fake recipient may still need top notch expensive care to stay alive if he doesn't get mild covid. Are you suggesting that he should pay in full for those care since you state it only harms the fake recipient ? Also, it increasingly seems that a third dose significantly increases protection against omicron.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  Yes, I think that would be an excellent idea, and quite a few countries are in fact moving in that direction. Early evidence is that the protection against transmission from the booster appears to be quite fleeting (weeks, not months), so the main reason to vaccinate is really to protect yourself.
- toolz 5y ago
  The unvaccinated haven't done nearly the damage policy has to hospitals. The US has like 6-7% fewer staffed beds than before the pandemic and has stupidly decided to fire unvaccinated healthcare workers that have almost assuredly developed their immunity naturally. People seem to forget much of the world still has no access to vaccines. Every person being vaccinated with natural immunity is someone without immunity missing that vaccine.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Yup. California is now changing the rules to allow Covid positive healthcare works to come back without any quarantine. https://www.kcra.com/article/nurses-react-covid-19-protocols-health-care-workers/38702838 https://www.kcra.com/article/nurses-react-covid-19-protocols... So is France and Canada.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    What does natural immunity mean with new variants and when it lasts from 90 days to six months? Are these people going to pay to get their antibody titers checked every week? If they incubate a new variant themselves are they willing to be held personally liable?
    - toolz 5y ago
      >What does natural immunity mean with new variants and when it lasts from 90 days to six months? I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you saying that antibodies last 90 days to 6 months? Firstly that's incorrect as antibodies seem to be detectable even after 8 months in the study I'm remembering, but more importantly your immune system is made up of many parts and antibodies are not the primary response to coronaviruses since the antibodies do fade rather quickly. Instead the many other parts of our immune system are extremely long lived with other coronaviruses and there's no reason to expect they won't be extremely long lived with covid. In fact the reason you see so many asymptomatic cases with covid is because of preexisting natural immunity to similar coronaviruses. > If they incubate a new variant themselves are they willing to be held personally liable? Are you suggesting if we had the tech (we don't) to trace down the exact host where a virus mutates into a recognizably different strain that host should be liable? I think you should really reflect on exactly that would mean and exactly how harmful that would be for society. You do realize every single person in the entire world will either die in the next couple of years or without a doubt be attacked by covid, right? That means you'd basically be putting up a lottery system to see who gets to lose for being "ground zero" for a new variant mutation. This would be completely pointless and would serve only to hurt people with zero chance of helping anyone.
acdha 5y ago
Vaccination continues to reduce transmission (less for Omicron than before, but it was known never to be be 100%) but it also significantly reduces the number of people with serious cases (still quite successful even with Omicron). That means there’s a big side effect from people not getting vaccinated: the healthcare system has finite capacity and when it’s full of people who wouldn’t be there if they’d been vaccinated, that means space isn’t available for anyone who has some other problem and the healthcare system is losing a lot of expensively trained people due to stress. It is extra hard on them to watch people die for avoidable reasons and many nurses, doctors, etc. have left at least temporarily due to burnout.
- robbiep 5y ago
  Not sure where the early downvotes are coming from but this is correct: my state has 95% 2 dose vaccination of adults and currently 150 ventilated patients- half of those are unvaccinated. So 5% of the population represents 50% of ICU ventilator capacity.
  - toolz 5y ago
    While I'm sure the unvaccinated represent more, it's also true that many reporting stats considered double vaccinated to be in the unvaccinated category if they are eligible for a booster and haven't had them.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Yup. I’ve seen similar gaming. Of the people who died in Singapore, 5/8th weren’t “fully vaccinated”, so they lump in the ones with one dose and those who haven’t met some predefined period of time post-2nd dose.
    - robbiep 5y ago
      This is not the case where I live, work and practice medicine
    - acdha 5y ago
      I don't know which sites you're seeing but the ones I use tend to break that out as “partially vaccinated” or “fully vaccinated” vs “fully vaccinated with booster” — which is good since the evidence has shown that there's a big difference between the waning protection against infection (i.e. neutralizing antibodies) versus protection against severe cases (i.e. T cells) even for partial vaccination. https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/?itid=sf_coronavirus_sn_covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses_5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-va... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccina... https://covidactnow.org/ https://covidactnow.org/ uses “at least one dose” for the national map but breaks out their state-level displays as “1+” and “fully vaccinated”.
542458 5y ago
1) I’m not aware of any research that shows near-zero reduction in transmission rate. As far as I’m aware, research shows that vaccination rate reductions in transmissiveness that are less than previous strains, but dramatically better than nothing. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v... > For households with the Omicron VOC, the corresponding OR for infection for unvaccinated individuals was 1.04 (CI: 0.87-1.24) and 0.54 (CI: 0.40-0.71) for booster-vaccinated individuals. 2) Keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed and keeping people from dying is a legitimate goal of vaccination, even in the absence of any reduction in transmission. The vaccine remains effective at this. Hospitalization rates for the unvaccinated are leagues higher than the vaccinated.
- yorwba 5y ago
  > As far as I’m aware, research shows that a two-dose vaccination rate provides disappointing reductions in transmissiveness - but far, far better than nothing. The paper you quote shows two-dose vaccination (or previous infection) increasing the secondary attack rate from 29% (unvaccinated) to 32%, i.e. worse than nothing. Only a booster reduces it back to 25%. My guess is that the increase is not due to direct biochemical effects of vaccination/prior infection, but due to people assuming that they're protected and taking fewer precautions. Demographic differences might also play a role.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Nope, nope nope, not at all. > After adjustment for confounders, we found that in households with the Delta VOC, the OR of infection was 2.31 (95% confidence interval (CI) 2.09-2.55) for unvaccinated individuals and 0.38 (CI: 0.32-0.46) for booster-vaccinated individuals when compared to fully vaccinated potential secondary cases. For households with the Omicron VOC, the corresponding OR for infection for unvaccinated individuals was 1.04 (CI: 0.87-1.24) and 0.54 (CI: 0.40-0.71) for booster-vaccinated individuals. For delta, two dose vaccination helps. For Omicron, there is no statistically significant effect of two dose vaccination. In no case is there an increase from two dose vaccination of attack rates.

dudul 5y ago

A war crime? For which ongoing war?

Tsiklon 5y ago
I believe they meant to express the idea that such a scenario is beyond morally reprehensible, so as to liken it morally to a war crime.
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  In her head it's more like "these people are fighting the state and are enemy of the state and its citizens".
johnchristopher 5y ago
The one on Covid. See Macron last year's speech https://www.bbc.com/news/av/51917380 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/51917380 Of course my mom is not asking for a war tribunal to prosecute people. She's talking about the gravity of the facts.
- dudul 5y ago
  This is stupid and insulting for people who experienced a true war. Does she know what wartime is like? Because I do and Ican tell you this has nothing to do with what we have right now.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    > This is stupid and insulting for people who experienced a true war. Does she know what wartime is like? Because I do and Ican tell you this has nothing to do with what we have right now. What's stupid is your insistence on trying to imply that a remark she made about the gravity of some acts is the same as her saying it's wartime. And for what it's worth, yes she actually does know what wartime is. I wasn't aware it was a requirement to be allowed to express one's concerns about the behavior of some people though and to relate it to despicable behaviors she saw first hand. This holier-thanthou attitude is very well misplaced. It's also significant you choose to single her out on this and say nothing of Macron who made a war time speech. And Macron has way more influence than my mom.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

All this hate for the medical profession. You have people who work long hours, bear huge responsibility and are treated like shit for a pathetic salary. I honestly don't even know why they keep doing it. You get less crazies as a prison guard and they have better security.

johnchristopher 5y ago
What hate ? Most people who hate on the medical profession are antivax. There has been violent actions taken against the medical workers in vaccination and testing centers in Belgium and France.
reacharavindh 5y ago
Lack of trust because of misdeeds does not mean one hates all Doctor and nurses who work their ass off to literally save people’s lives. It is not binary. There is a difference between - will I go to the hospital if I get hurt or have a medical need versus do I trust the hospital to not fleece for some care I may not need. The fact that this question needs to be asked is a result of the lack of trust. If there is any profession where there should have been zero tolerance for malpractice, it is this noble medical profession.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
In the US it is the accumulation of years of frustration with our for-profit system. Insurance at a minimum feels like a parasite, and then on top of that it is the personification of byzantine bureaucratic mazes and arbitrary rulings. Insurance is also fragile, where an employee that needs their healthcare for something like cancer is then exposed to be laid off and lose coverage. When you need it most, you are subjected to exploitation and fraud: surprise billing, lack of coverage, and doctors that feign ignorance about costs and complexities. Meanwhile anyone that knows how billing professionals knows: #1 rule is bill when you can, the #2 rule is to bill as much as possible. The end result is a lack of faith in our system, where it is just a system of profiteering and exploitation. They work long hours because they will eventually make a lot of money (my friend is a cardiologist, not even a surgeon, and makes 800k per year in the US) and get huge amounts of prestige. Doctors are the only nerd profession that is cool and sexy. And the number of hours is actually less than it used to be back in the day. Of course, you don't get as many perks from the drug/device company reps anymore, or have they figured out how to give doctors steak dinners and golf junkets again?