5 ms·

There are even special litter boxes sold that are intended to go on the toilet seat for this type of training. But as cool as this is, I believe it can be dange

There are even special litter boxes sold that are intended to go on the toilet seat for this type of training. But as cool as this is, I believe it can be dangerous, especially for owners of male cats. Cats' urinary habits are important to keep an eye on. A change in urination volume or frequency can be the sign of a critical issue that requires veterinary attention. You just can't easily track urine volume if the cat is going to the toilet, even if they don't flush. With a litterbox, you can get an idea of what their normal clump size is and notice if that changes. Regarding frequency, maybe you can hear your cat jump on the toilet, but I'm not sure it's as reliable as hearing them repeatedly scratching the litterbox. If you are out during the day and come home, with a litterbox you still notice the pee clumps to get an idea of how much they've peed - unlike with a toilet. One aspect where the toilet may actually be better is that you _might_ be able to spot blood easier in the water. I also wanted to train my first cat to use the toilet, until he suffered from a urinary blockage as a kitten. If he'd been using the toilet, I likely wouldn't have noticed that anything was wrong until it was far too late. Blockage is more likely in male cats, and it is _not_ an uncommon problem. It is already far too easy to not notice if a cat is blocked if you're not careful, and it doesn't take long at all to become life threatening. I believe a toilet would only exacerbate this risk. If I see blood in the litter, no clumps, or clumps that are smaller than usual (or heck, even much bigger than usual), I know to pay extra attention to my cat and either book a vet appointment or go to the emergency room. It's allowed me to catch bouts of infection, crystals, and idiopathic cystitis early (all of which he is now more prone to after his initial urinary problems). A cat's kidneys and urinary system can also be impacted by stress levels, with unexplained straining and bladder inflammation thought to be in some cases caused by stress. Having them pee in a toilet in my opinion decreases visibility of a very important and sensitive health factor.

ModernMech 5y ago
> One aspect where the toilet may actually be better is that you _might_ be able to spot blood easier in the water. One thing that's cool is there are special cat litters now that change color when blood is present.
oneplane 5y ago
This is one of those things I thought of as well. A pet generally won't know how healthy it is or if it feels unwell why it does so. What you can do as a pet owner is monitor behaviour and check what goes in (food, water) and comes out (poop, urine, vomit) as a basic indication of health.
dawnerd 5y ago
And if you have a male cat it’s important to also make sure they’re getting enough liquid, especially if they’re on a dry food diet. My cat almost died while I was out of town because he stopped drinking from stress I guess and was only on a dry diet. Now they’re on a can diet and healthy.
- drakonka 5y ago
  Very good point. My cats get wet only. The male I mentioned in my other comment is underweight since he never regained his full appetite after his urinary issues, so at some point I started allowing him to snack on a bit of dry food at night to get his weight up. A month or two later he developed urinary problems. This ended up being caused by crystals in his bladder, which are associated with not taking in enough liquids. Now, I'd rather he be a little skinny than risk that again. Water fountains help, but aren't enough. There is an issue of Royal Canin Veterinary Focus that focuses on lower urinary tract disease in cats and dogs: https://vetfocus.royalcanin.com/en/-/media/vet-focus/en-us-pdfs/veterinary-focus--2014--241en.pdf?rev=101a0a39bd864a05858567eec241e174 https://vetfocus.royalcanin.com/en/-/media/vet-focus/en-us-p... There are interesting sections on Feline Idiopathic Cystitis and blockage, which talk about water management as well. On page 23, there is a table called "Table 1. Clinical features of cats diagnosed with cystitis with (n = 8,220) or without (7,862) concurrent pyuria in 2012." At the bottom of the table are a few rows on diet. ~3.5% of cats in the sample were on a canned-only diet. ~19.2% were on a mix of dry and canned food. 77.3% were on a dry-only diet (percentages slightly varied for those with pyuria).
  - xivzgrev 5y ago
    Yep. My cat was dry only, and almost died from a blockage. He’s been wet only, and no issues, since When I hear other cat owners feeding only dry I tell them this. They don’t usually want to change, likely believing that wouldnt happen to their cat, but at least they’re informed.
fhe 5y ago
I'd just want to add that, I in general don't think it's a good idea to train cats to learn behaviors that are unnatural for them. One could say that, eating processed cat food and living with humans are already unnatural, which is true. But to the extent that's possible, I want to provide my cats the freedom to act as naturally as possible. On this particular cat toilet training trick: cats are in fact quite particular about litterbox -- where it's positioned, how safe it feels inside it, how it smells. A human toilet is decidedly an unnatural setup for cats, and who knows what can happen. Maybe the cat learns to use it but constantly feels anxious about it (e.g. slipper surface). Maybe it will avoid pooping until it gets really uncomfortable. All of these can't be good for its health.
- yholio 5y ago
  The modern housecat is just about as natural as a naked human living wild in the forest. It has been selectively bred to perfection for cuteness and sociability with low aggression and diminished survival abilities. Some can't even tolerate the natural climate where their owners live. I totally support "healthy", but natural, what is natural for a species that has evolved to use intelligence to prevail over the natural world (in this case, the intelligence of their owners, but still)? No my friend, our purpose on this earth is to co-evolve the most unnatural cat to the point where they are ready to take over as the dominant inteligent species of this side of the galaxy.
  - wwwwewwww 5y ago
    "The modern housecat is just about as natural as a naked human living wild in the forest. It has been selectively bred..." I think it would be better to say "The modern housecat is just about as natural as a modern human living in a modern house". Both species adapted to modern human environment.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    If God meant for people to be naked, they'd be born that way!
- causality0 5y ago
praptak 5y ago
OTOH it might be easier to take a urine sample from a toilet trained cat. For litter trained cats you need to use special non absorbent litter or leave the cat at the vet so that they collect the sample themselves.
- drakonka 5y ago
  That can be true, but I think you can also get the cat used to sample collection by hand as they go into the box. I've had to collect so many samples over the years, and the easiest way is to hold a measuring cup/spoon under the cat when he/she goes into the box and squats. When I hear mine go to the box, I just walk over slowly and chill in the area (act casual). Then, when he looks committed and gets into position, I squat next to the box and hold the cup under him. You can collect a good amount of very clean urine this way (of course not sterile like cystocentesis, but for most purposes it is perfectly fine). It takes some practice to find the right place to hold the spoon depending on your cat's anatomy, as you have to estimate where the pee will end up going. In another part of this thread I mentioned having a Litter Robot, which this technique is not really possible with. I bring out a backup open litterbox when I need to collect a sample, for easy access.
xivzgrev 5y ago
My cat got blocked one time. It just happened one day. Came home from work and he was meowing painfully, and kept doing it. So I took him to ER. Did you notice warning signs in days prior? I typically don’t check litter every day so possible I missed subtle signs earlier
- drakonka 5y ago
  Sorry to hear about your cat. I hope he's OK now. It was really unfortunate because mine was blocked after an otherwise routine surgery, after which the vet warned us that it might take him longer to go to the litter box! So at first we thought nothing of it and thought him not having peed yet was normal post-surgery recovery. But I did learn to recognize the signs after that, since they kept sending him home while he was still blocked. In general, the potential signs of a blockage are pretty much the same as potential signs of infection or other urinary issues. I suggest watching/listening for the following: * Frequent trips to the box. If a cat keeps going in repeatedly, something might be up. They either can't get pee out, or have some irritation that is making them need like they need to keep going to the box. This can start with just going a bit more frequently than you're used to and escalate to stepping in and out of the box every few minutes. Note that this can also be a sign of constipation, which can also be bad (but tends to be less critical than urinary blockage in the beginning). Usually cats have a different stance when they pee vs poop, so you can kind of tell what they're trying to do if you pay attention. Sometimes, if they keep straining to pee and can't, they might actually resort to trying to poop instead, which won't help and just keep them coming back to the box. * Low or no volume. These frequent trips, in case of blockage, will result in no pee coming out, or maybe just drops. This _could_ also mean that the cat simply has no pee left in them and it is some other urinary tract irritation causing them to feel like they keep having to go, but that is really only safe to assume if you've _seen_ them pee a good amount recently. Usually when they are just irritated, they'll still get _something_ out when they go back in. If when you get home all you find is abnormally tiny clumps or drops, it can be a sign that something is off. * Vocalization. If they are vocalizing more than usual, especially in or around the box. It can be a sign of pain (this sounds like what you used to catch it, which is great). * Blood in the urine. I know it can be hard to see with many litters, but sometimes you can spot blood either in the urine, drops on or around the box, or even on the cat's fur after they go. This is more a sign of bladder irritation than blockage, but the two often go hand in hand, and one can progress to the other, so it's time to see a vet. * Trying to go outside of the box. If they are in pain or unable to pee in the box, they may resort to trying to find another spot. If you find your cat peeing or trying to pee outside of the box when they're otherwise litter trained, something might be wrong. * Repeated licking of nether regions, especially coupled with one or more of the above. If they are in pain or irritated, they may keep licking and fussing with the area. * Eventually, not going to the box at all. The bladder gets distended, and nerves are damaged. This is very dangerous. The bladder is full, but the cat loses the ability to feel when they need to pee. My vets have said that as a rule of thumb, if a cat does not pee at least once in 24 hours, to get to the emergency vet asap. There can also be cat-specific, individual signs of irritation or pain that you'd know best as the owner. For example, I noticed when my cat has trouble comfortably peeing he will start drinking a lot more water. I am not sure if this is common for all cats, but it's one thing I keep an eye on: if he keeps going between the box and the water bowl, I know something is up. In general, a lot of it is quite individual. Cats do sometimes just change up their pee schedule. I might come home and find that mine hasn't peed at all when he normally would, but that doesn't mean I need to rush to the emergency just based on that one thing. I judge by how he looks, how he's acting, and just keep an extra eye out for any additional signs (and pay attention for when he pees next). We can also learn to feel the fullness of the bladder through the abdomen, and many cat owners (especially those dealing with disabled cats) do. Apparently it's quite easy, and my vet would do this pretty regularly when needed, but I unfortunately never managed to get the hang of it myself (though I still try sometimes if I suspect something is wrong).
ricardobeat 5y ago
My extended family has always had a ton of cats, and I don’t remember the last one that was seriously ill without it being due to old age. Most of them were “outdoor cats” in a small country town. Is there something in modern cats’ diet / habits that makes them more susceptible to disease? These concerns read like hypochondria, coming from this background.
- drakonka 5y ago
  I wouldn't call something hypochondria just because I personally haven't had to deal with it. It's really great that you've never had this issue and I hope you never have to, but if we're going by anecdotes, there are several in this very thread from people who have. Diet can be a contributing factor, yes. I mention it a bit in this comment, with a link to a journal issue that talks about these issues in dogs and cats, including some information on frequency and contributing factors: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29864189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29864189
- reaperducer 5y ago
  Since we're trading anecdotes... My experience with six cats over the last 25 years is that the outdoor cats lived much longer and got sick less than my inside cats. I have no idea why, but i don't think it's diet, because they've all eaten the same food.
  - mdpye 5y ago
    > they've all eaten the same food Heh, that's what you think... Ever watched one of those lighthearted documentaries where they GPS tag and attach cameras to a whole neighbourhood's cats? They mostly wandered around eating each other's food :D
  - 3np 5y ago
    Just like with humans, exercise is a major factor in health. Outdoor cats generally get way more. Another factor for this observation (that I also made) could be genetics - generally "pure-bred" (aka more likely to suffer from disease linked to genetic factors) are more likely to be strictly-indoors while outdoor cats are more often "mongrels".
zwilliamson 5y ago
When it comes to cat health and preventative care a lot can be gleaned from the book The Forever Dog (https://foreverdog.com https://foreverdog.com). There is a lot we can do as care takers to prevent health issues and not just monitor for them. The summary of the book is "Eat less, eat fresher, and move more and more often" Perhaps with cats the movement part maybe not be as applicable, but the eating fresher (no processed foods) and eating less would make a huge difference it a cats life. Maybe someone will write Forever Cat?
- drakonka 5y ago
  I think that largely makes sense, but also think the _biggest_ jump in cat food quality isn't so much the jump to freshness but the jump away from dry. Cats who eat primarily dry food are at risk of chronic dehydration. They simply do not end up drinking enough water to compensate for the low moisture content in their food[0]. Water fountains help entice some cats to drink more, but in the end it's usually not enough to compensate. For my cats, I usually opt for variety. I try to pick high protein wet food of different types, including nutritionally balanced raw, within their individual requirements and tastes. At the same time, I follow my vet's advice and always have urinary wet food handy. Usually they get one pouch of urinary food that helps prevent and dissolve a certain type of bladder crystal in addition to normal wet food each day. [0] https://www.waltham.com/news-events/nutrition/cats-can-benefit-from-increased-dietary-moisture https://www.waltham.com/news-events/nutrition/cats-can-benef...

ModernMech 5y ago

> One aspect where the toilet may actually be better is that you _might_ be able to spot blood easier in the water. One thing that's cool is there are special cat litters now that change color when blood is present.

oneplane 5y ago

This is one of those things I thought of as well. A pet generally won't know how healthy it is or if it feels unwell why it does so. What you can do as a pet owner is monitor behaviour and check what goes in (food, water) and comes out (poop, urine, vomit) as a basic indication of health.

dawnerd 5y ago

And if you have a male cat it’s important to also make sure they’re getting enough liquid, especially if they’re on a dry food diet. My cat almost died while I was out of town because he stopped drinking from stress I guess and was only on a dry diet. Now they’re on a can diet and healthy.

drakonka 5y ago
Very good point. My cats get wet only. The male I mentioned in my other comment is underweight since he never regained his full appetite after his urinary issues, so at some point I started allowing him to snack on a bit of dry food at night to get his weight up. A month or two later he developed urinary problems. This ended up being caused by crystals in his bladder, which are associated with not taking in enough liquids. Now, I'd rather he be a little skinny than risk that again. Water fountains help, but aren't enough. There is an issue of Royal Canin Veterinary Focus that focuses on lower urinary tract disease in cats and dogs: https://vetfocus.royalcanin.com/en/-/media/vet-focus/en-us-pdfs/veterinary-focus--2014--241en.pdf?rev=101a0a39bd864a05858567eec241e174 https://vetfocus.royalcanin.com/en/-/media/vet-focus/en-us-p... There are interesting sections on Feline Idiopathic Cystitis and blockage, which talk about water management as well. On page 23, there is a table called "Table 1. Clinical features of cats diagnosed with cystitis with (n = 8,220) or without (7,862) concurrent pyuria in 2012." At the bottom of the table are a few rows on diet. ~3.5% of cats in the sample were on a canned-only diet. ~19.2% were on a mix of dry and canned food. 77.3% were on a dry-only diet (percentages slightly varied for those with pyuria).
- xivzgrev 5y ago
  Yep. My cat was dry only, and almost died from a blockage. He’s been wet only, and no issues, since When I hear other cat owners feeding only dry I tell them this. They don’t usually want to change, likely believing that wouldnt happen to their cat, but at least they’re informed.

fhe 5y ago

I'd just want to add that, I in general don't think it's a good idea to train cats to learn behaviors that are unnatural for them. One could say that, eating processed cat food and living with humans are already unnatural, which is true. But to the extent that's possible, I want to provide my cats the freedom to act as naturally as possible. On this particular cat toilet training trick: cats are in fact quite particular about litterbox -- where it's positioned, how safe it feels inside it, how it smells. A human toilet is decidedly an unnatural setup for cats, and who knows what can happen. Maybe the cat learns to use it but constantly feels anxious about it (e.g. slipper surface). Maybe it will avoid pooping until it gets really uncomfortable. All of these can't be good for its health.

yholio 5y ago
The modern housecat is just about as natural as a naked human living wild in the forest. It has been selectively bred to perfection for cuteness and sociability with low aggression and diminished survival abilities. Some can't even tolerate the natural climate where their owners live. I totally support "healthy", but natural, what is natural for a species that has evolved to use intelligence to prevail over the natural world (in this case, the intelligence of their owners, but still)? No my friend, our purpose on this earth is to co-evolve the most unnatural cat to the point where they are ready to take over as the dominant inteligent species of this side of the galaxy.
- wwwwewwww 5y ago
  "The modern housecat is just about as natural as a naked human living wild in the forest. It has been selectively bred..." I think it would be better to say "The modern housecat is just about as natural as a modern human living in a modern house". Both species adapted to modern human environment.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  If God meant for people to be naked, they'd be born that way!
causality0 5y ago

praptak 5y ago

OTOH it might be easier to take a urine sample from a toilet trained cat. For litter trained cats you need to use special non absorbent litter or leave the cat at the vet so that they collect the sample themselves.

drakonka 5y ago
That can be true, but I think you can also get the cat used to sample collection by hand as they go into the box. I've had to collect so many samples over the years, and the easiest way is to hold a measuring cup/spoon under the cat when he/she goes into the box and squats. When I hear mine go to the box, I just walk over slowly and chill in the area (act casual). Then, when he looks committed and gets into position, I squat next to the box and hold the cup under him. You can collect a good amount of very clean urine this way (of course not sterile like cystocentesis, but for most purposes it is perfectly fine). It takes some practice to find the right place to hold the spoon depending on your cat's anatomy, as you have to estimate where the pee will end up going. In another part of this thread I mentioned having a Litter Robot, which this technique is not really possible with. I bring out a backup open litterbox when I need to collect a sample, for easy access.

xivzgrev 5y ago

My cat got blocked one time. It just happened one day. Came home from work and he was meowing painfully, and kept doing it. So I took him to ER. Did you notice warning signs in days prior? I typically don’t check litter every day so possible I missed subtle signs earlier

drakonka 5y ago
Sorry to hear about your cat. I hope he's OK now. It was really unfortunate because mine was blocked after an otherwise routine surgery, after which the vet warned us that it might take him longer to go to the litter box! So at first we thought nothing of it and thought him not having peed yet was normal post-surgery recovery. But I did learn to recognize the signs after that, since they kept sending him home while he was still blocked. In general, the potential signs of a blockage are pretty much the same as potential signs of infection or other urinary issues. I suggest watching/listening for the following: * Frequent trips to the box. If a cat keeps going in repeatedly, something might be up. They either can't get pee out, or have some irritation that is making them need like they need to keep going to the box. This can start with just going a bit more frequently than you're used to and escalate to stepping in and out of the box every few minutes. Note that this can also be a sign of constipation, which can also be bad (but tends to be less critical than urinary blockage in the beginning). Usually cats have a different stance when they pee vs poop, so you can kind of tell what they're trying to do if you pay attention. Sometimes, if they keep straining to pee and can't, they might actually resort to trying to poop instead, which won't help and just keep them coming back to the box. * Low or no volume. These frequent trips, in case of blockage, will result in no pee coming out, or maybe just drops. This _could_ also mean that the cat simply has no pee left in them and it is some other urinary tract irritation causing them to feel like they keep having to go, but that is really only safe to assume if you've _seen_ them pee a good amount recently. Usually when they are just irritated, they'll still get _something_ out when they go back in. If when you get home all you find is abnormally tiny clumps or drops, it can be a sign that something is off. * Vocalization. If they are vocalizing more than usual, especially in or around the box. It can be a sign of pain (this sounds like what you used to catch it, which is great). * Blood in the urine. I know it can be hard to see with many litters, but sometimes you can spot blood either in the urine, drops on or around the box, or even on the cat's fur after they go. This is more a sign of bladder irritation than blockage, but the two often go hand in hand, and one can progress to the other, so it's time to see a vet. * Trying to go outside of the box. If they are in pain or unable to pee in the box, they may resort to trying to find another spot. If you find your cat peeing or trying to pee outside of the box when they're otherwise litter trained, something might be wrong. * Repeated licking of nether regions, especially coupled with one or more of the above. If they are in pain or irritated, they may keep licking and fussing with the area. * Eventually, not going to the box at all. The bladder gets distended, and nerves are damaged. This is very dangerous. The bladder is full, but the cat loses the ability to feel when they need to pee. My vets have said that as a rule of thumb, if a cat does not pee at least once in 24 hours, to get to the emergency vet asap. There can also be cat-specific, individual signs of irritation or pain that you'd know best as the owner. For example, I noticed when my cat has trouble comfortably peeing he will start drinking a lot more water. I am not sure if this is common for all cats, but it's one thing I keep an eye on: if he keeps going between the box and the water bowl, I know something is up. In general, a lot of it is quite individual. Cats do sometimes just change up their pee schedule. I might come home and find that mine hasn't peed at all when he normally would, but that doesn't mean I need to rush to the emergency just based on that one thing. I judge by how he looks, how he's acting, and just keep an extra eye out for any additional signs (and pay attention for when he pees next). We can also learn to feel the fullness of the bladder through the abdomen, and many cat owners (especially those dealing with disabled cats) do. Apparently it's quite easy, and my vet would do this pretty regularly when needed, but I unfortunately never managed to get the hang of it myself (though I still try sometimes if I suspect something is wrong).

ricardobeat 5y ago

My extended family has always had a ton of cats, and I don’t remember the last one that was seriously ill without it being due to old age. Most of them were “outdoor cats” in a small country town. Is there something in modern cats’ diet / habits that makes them more susceptible to disease? These concerns read like hypochondria, coming from this background.

drakonka 5y ago
I wouldn't call something hypochondria just because I personally haven't had to deal with it. It's really great that you've never had this issue and I hope you never have to, but if we're going by anecdotes, there are several in this very thread from people who have. Diet can be a contributing factor, yes. I mention it a bit in this comment, with a link to a journal issue that talks about these issues in dogs and cats, including some information on frequency and contributing factors: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29864189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29864189
reaperducer 5y ago
Since we're trading anecdotes... My experience with six cats over the last 25 years is that the outdoor cats lived much longer and got sick less than my inside cats. I have no idea why, but i don't think it's diet, because they've all eaten the same food.
- mdpye 5y ago
  > they've all eaten the same food Heh, that's what you think... Ever watched one of those lighthearted documentaries where they GPS tag and attach cameras to a whole neighbourhood's cats? They mostly wandered around eating each other's food :D
- 3np 5y ago
  Just like with humans, exercise is a major factor in health. Outdoor cats generally get way more. Another factor for this observation (that I also made) could be genetics - generally "pure-bred" (aka more likely to suffer from disease linked to genetic factors) are more likely to be strictly-indoors while outdoor cats are more often "mongrels".

zwilliamson 5y ago

When it comes to cat health and preventative care a lot can be gleaned from the book The Forever Dog (https://foreverdog.com https://foreverdog.com). There is a lot we can do as care takers to prevent health issues and not just monitor for them. The summary of the book is "Eat less, eat fresher, and move more and more often" Perhaps with cats the movement part maybe not be as applicable, but the eating fresher (no processed foods) and eating less would make a huge difference it a cats life. Maybe someone will write Forever Cat?

drakonka 5y ago
I think that largely makes sense, but also think the _biggest_ jump in cat food quality isn't so much the jump to freshness but the jump away from dry. Cats who eat primarily dry food are at risk of chronic dehydration. They simply do not end up drinking enough water to compensate for the low moisture content in their food[0]. Water fountains help entice some cats to drink more, but in the end it's usually not enough to compensate. For my cats, I usually opt for variety. I try to pick high protein wet food of different types, including nutritionally balanced raw, within their individual requirements and tastes. At the same time, I follow my vet's advice and always have urinary wet food handy. Usually they get one pouch of urinary food that helps prevent and dissolve a certain type of bladder crystal in addition to normal wet food each day. [0] https://www.waltham.com/news-events/nutrition/cats-can-benefit-from-increased-dietary-moisture https://www.waltham.com/news-events/nutrition/cats-can-benef...