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> The US policy response has been far more costly and destructive than it needed to be. As with many things, the US response combined all the worst parts of th

by api 5y ago

> The US policy response has been far more costly and destructive than it needed to be. As with many things, the US response combined all the worst parts of the left's reaction to the pandemic with all the worst aspects of the right's. We had ham-fisted lockdowns (of dubious effectiveness) that destroyed small business and harmed mental health while simultaneously we had a right-wing crackpot antivaccination movement that prevented vaccine herd immunity from being achieved fast enough to really impact the virus. Our present day two party system is like a two fisted beat down in boxing. First you get a left, then you get a right, then a left, then a right, until you're curled up on the floor and you can't take any more. Maybe a constitutional amendment to ban political parties would help, or at least ranked choice voting so we no longer "have" to vote for incompetent fools or "our vote doesn't count" against the other incompetent fool.

shmel 5y ago
> prevented vaccine herd immunity from being achieved It is easy to blame antivaxxers. Could you however name a few countries where vaccine herd immunity was achieved?
chernevik 5y ago
The anti-vax movement isn't just right-wing. Blacks are the most under-vaccinated demographic. And it is important to distinguish those who are against mandates from those who are against the vaccine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  I think this is misleading. It's very notable that the states where the racial gap is highest are a) not doing very well on mass vaccination b) Republican https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-glo... So I think it's fair to ask if these people have been denied the vaccine more than they've rejected it. Meanwhile, the stats fairly clearly show political affiliation to be a bigger factor: > According to a report from the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) released on Sept. 28, gaps in vaccination rates across racial and ethnic groups have virtually disappeared—while gaps reflecting political affiliation have widened substantially.
  - batch12 5y ago
    Where are vaccines being denied? I haven't seen this as a thing even in the reddest states.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      I think you're thinking of a very literal "I'm here for my vaccine" ""No, denied due to skin color" when I'm thinking of "We should spend some money and put some collective effort in to ensure everyone has quick and easy access to the vaccine, especially the poor and the vulnerable" "No, we’ll follow the same general plan as for voting, long lines at a few awkward places where lots of black people live, lots of locations with short waits where white people live".
      - batch12 5y ago
        Nope, still haven't seen this as a thing. There are still drugstores and doctors offices which have vaccines in these poor areas that give the shots for free. Not getting the shot is a deliberate choice and it's not racism that is blocking people from getting it. People of every race are smart and enabled enough to get this shot if they want it.
        ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        Interesting that COVID vaccine provision is less racist than the average healthcare provision: > NAM found that “racial and ethnic minorities receive lower-quality health care than white people—even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable.” By “lower-quality health care,” NAM meant the concrete, inferior care that physicians give their black patients. NAM reported that minority persons are less likely than white persons to be given appropriate cardiac care, to receive kidney dialysis or transplants, and to receive the best treatments for stroke, cancer, or AIDS. It concluded by describing an “uncomfortable reality”: “some people in the United States were more likely to die from cancer, heart disease, and diabetes simply because of their race or ethnicity, not just because they lack access to health care.” But I wouldn't want to doubt your anectodal evidence that black people are "smart" enough to not face institutional racism.
- afavour 5y ago
  > The anti-vax movement isn't just right-wing. Blacks are the most under-vaccinated demographic. I’d resist extrapolating too much from that. “hasn’t got a vaccine” doesn’t equal “is anti-vax”. There are still issues with accessibility of the vaccine (varying wildly according to location) and those with lower incomes working hourly-paid jobs are concerned about having to take time off to both get the vaccine (two doses) and deal with the side effects. That’s not to say no black people are anti-vax, there’s a strong distrust of the medical establishment by many (given the history it’s understandable!) but just pointing out that it’s not a 1:1 relationship.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I don't think I'd describe the black people who don't get vaccinated as "anti-vax". Black people have a well earned historical distrust of the medical community that's pretty much completely unrelated to the zeitgeist of the "anti-vax" movement.
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    Anti-vax is anti-vax regardless of how justified you may think the reasons are. Anyway, if it’s justifiable to believe that the medical community is behaving untrustworthily towards black people, wouldn’t that be evidence that they’re unethical in general, and reason enough for anyone, black or not, not to get the vaccine?
  - zepto 5y ago
    I don’t see how they are unrelated at all. It sounds like you are saying they just don’t ‘feel’ like the same thing, but I see no reason for that other than racism.
  - Levitz 5y ago
    Going down that line of thinking, I think every citizen out there can have legitimate distrust of their government.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Black people have a well earned historical distrust of the medical community that's pretty much completely unrelated to the zeitgeist of the "anti-vax" movement. As opposed to white people? Why does it matter whether you mistrust the US government because of Tuskegee Syphilis Study, or because of MKULTRA?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      It's really weird how people responding to me keep talking about distrust in the US government, when I was talking about distrust in the medical community.
      - 5y ago
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  There is an difference between a community that just happens to have low vaccination rates, and one that is ideologically opposed to vaccinations.
halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
The lockdown was a response to a completely unknown pathogen, presumably airborne, that was causing sickness globally. A “ham fisted lockdown” was completely justified to protect everyone while we figured out what was going on. I love everyone trying to play epidemiologist or public policy coordinator like they know what they’re talking about; what hubris.
- Breazy 5y ago
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Tell that to the small businesses that were destroyed because of “two weeks to slow the spread” and the families that relied on them. They passionately hate these leaders.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    But do they hate them because they didnt provide government support as part of their response, or do they hate them because they think just doing nothing wouldn't have also destroyed their business when everyone got sick at the same time?
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      They hate them for inflating the currency, giving everyone stimulus and so many benefits it’s hard to hire, for forcing their businesses to shut down for months and have 50% of small restaurants go insolvent for “two weeks to slow the spread,” for forcing people to work from home suddenly and the productivity damages and delays initially caused… There’s plenty to hate and more.
      - JaimeThompson 5y ago
        "giving everyone stimulus and so many benefits it’s hard to hire" When did all of those benefits and stimulus for the common person end? It was September wasn't it with some states stopping them months before that yet the states that stopped them before are still having trouble filling jobs. Please correct me if I am wrong.
peatmoss 5y ago
I couldn't agree more. I think when people choose their side, they have to pick positions that clearly identify them as belonging to that side. "My bonafides as a republicrat can be succinctly established by espousing a hawkish kill-all-the-butter-side-up-people position." Two parties might be the worse possible number of parties in terms of creating polarization and extremism. I'm generally not a fan of voter initiative processes, but imagine states passing a voter initiative to make ALL public offices non-partisan?

by api 5y ago

shmel 5y ago

> prevented vaccine herd immunity from being achieved It is easy to blame antivaxxers. Could you however name a few countries where vaccine herd immunity was achieved?

chernevik 5y ago

The anti-vax movement isn't just right-wing. Blacks are the most under-vaccinated demographic. And it is important to distinguish those who are against mandates from those who are against the vaccine.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I think this is misleading. It's very notable that the states where the racial gap is highest are a) not doing very well on mass vaccination b) Republican https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-glo... So I think it's fair to ask if these people have been denied the vaccine more than they've rejected it. Meanwhile, the stats fairly clearly show political affiliation to be a bigger factor: > According to a report from the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) released on Sept. 28, gaps in vaccination rates across racial and ethnic groups have virtually disappeared—while gaps reflecting political affiliation have widened substantially.
- batch12 5y ago
  Where are vaccines being denied? I haven't seen this as a thing even in the reddest states.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    I think you're thinking of a very literal "I'm here for my vaccine" ""No, denied due to skin color" when I'm thinking of "We should spend some money and put some collective effort in to ensure everyone has quick and easy access to the vaccine, especially the poor and the vulnerable" "No, we’ll follow the same general plan as for voting, long lines at a few awkward places where lots of black people live, lots of locations with short waits where white people live".
    - batch12 5y ago
      Nope, still haven't seen this as a thing. There are still drugstores and doctors offices which have vaccines in these poor areas that give the shots for free. Not getting the shot is a deliberate choice and it's not racism that is blocking people from getting it. People of every race are smart and enabled enough to get this shot if they want it.
      - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        Interesting that COVID vaccine provision is less racist than the average healthcare provision: > NAM found that “racial and ethnic minorities receive lower-quality health care than white people—even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable.” By “lower-quality health care,” NAM meant the concrete, inferior care that physicians give their black patients. NAM reported that minority persons are less likely than white persons to be given appropriate cardiac care, to receive kidney dialysis or transplants, and to receive the best treatments for stroke, cancer, or AIDS. It concluded by describing an “uncomfortable reality”: “some people in the United States were more likely to die from cancer, heart disease, and diabetes simply because of their race or ethnicity, not just because they lack access to health care.” But I wouldn't want to doubt your anectodal evidence that black people are "smart" enough to not face institutional racism.
afavour 5y ago
> The anti-vax movement isn't just right-wing. Blacks are the most under-vaccinated demographic. I’d resist extrapolating too much from that. “hasn’t got a vaccine” doesn’t equal “is anti-vax”. There are still issues with accessibility of the vaccine (varying wildly according to location) and those with lower incomes working hourly-paid jobs are concerned about having to take time off to both get the vaccine (two doses) and deal with the side effects. That’s not to say no black people are anti-vax, there’s a strong distrust of the medical establishment by many (given the history it’s understandable!) but just pointing out that it’s not a 1:1 relationship.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I don't think I'd describe the black people who don't get vaccinated as "anti-vax". Black people have a well earned historical distrust of the medical community that's pretty much completely unrelated to the zeitgeist of the "anti-vax" movement.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  Anti-vax is anti-vax regardless of how justified you may think the reasons are. Anyway, if it’s justifiable to believe that the medical community is behaving untrustworthily towards black people, wouldn’t that be evidence that they’re unethical in general, and reason enough for anyone, black or not, not to get the vaccine?
- zepto 5y ago
  I don’t see how they are unrelated at all. It sounds like you are saying they just don’t ‘feel’ like the same thing, but I see no reason for that other than racism.
- Levitz 5y ago
  Going down that line of thinking, I think every citizen out there can have legitimate distrust of their government.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Black people have a well earned historical distrust of the medical community that's pretty much completely unrelated to the zeitgeist of the "anti-vax" movement. As opposed to white people? Why does it matter whether you mistrust the US government because of Tuskegee Syphilis Study, or because of MKULTRA?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    It's really weird how people responding to me keep talking about distrust in the US government, when I was talking about distrust in the medical community.
    - 5y ago
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
There is an difference between a community that just happens to have low vaccination rates, and one that is ideologically opposed to vaccinations.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

The lockdown was a response to a completely unknown pathogen, presumably airborne, that was causing sickness globally. A “ham fisted lockdown” was completely justified to protect everyone while we figured out what was going on. I love everyone trying to play epidemiologist or public policy coordinator like they know what they’re talking about; what hubris.

Breazy 5y ago
gjsman-1000 5y ago
Tell that to the small businesses that were destroyed because of “two weeks to slow the spread” and the families that relied on them. They passionately hate these leaders.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  But do they hate them because they didnt provide government support as part of their response, or do they hate them because they think just doing nothing wouldn't have also destroyed their business when everyone got sick at the same time?
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    They hate them for inflating the currency, giving everyone stimulus and so many benefits it’s hard to hire, for forcing their businesses to shut down for months and have 50% of small restaurants go insolvent for “two weeks to slow the spread,” for forcing people to work from home suddenly and the productivity damages and delays initially caused… There’s plenty to hate and more.
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      "giving everyone stimulus and so many benefits it’s hard to hire" When did all of those benefits and stimulus for the common person end? It was September wasn't it with some states stopping them months before that yet the states that stopped them before are still having trouble filling jobs. Please correct me if I am wrong.

peatmoss 5y ago

I couldn't agree more. I think when people choose their side, they have to pick positions that clearly identify them as belonging to that side. "My bonafides as a republicrat can be succinctly established by espousing a hawkish kill-all-the-butter-side-up-people position." Two parties might be the worse possible number of parties in terms of creating polarization and extremism. I'm generally not a fan of voter initiative processes, but imagine states passing a voter initiative to make ALL public offices non-partisan?