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I'm just being cynical here but there is probably some element of truth that there's just nothing to disrupt -- printer manufacturers had the billionaire disrup

by csydas 5y ago

I'm just being cynical here but there is probably some element of truth that there's just nothing to disrupt -- printer manufacturers had the billionaire disruption playbook mastered before billionaire disruption was really a thing. I'll acknowledge that disruption can sometimes bring consumer benefits, but inevitably it's short lived benefits or benefits that are just to hook you and then gouge you later. Printers have been good for decades, and only the limitations built in by manufacturers make them bad†. I think even well into 2010 a friend of mine was using an old Apple laser printer and it was pretty darn reliable for getting text out fast. Think about all the ways manufacturers have tried/still are monetizing printers: - DRM on cartridges - Forcing all cartridges to have ink even to print in black and white - Per-page subscription models that deliver ink and cap monthly prints I'm sure I've missed some of the other really sick ways, but I'm not really sure there are that many ways that could've been missed. Combine that with the fact that increasingly there are more online forms and digital signing has some traction, it's not really that lucrative I think to get into. I don't know the full situation in the US, but when I was last there, the common copy shops were either Kinkos or (sometimes) USPS/UPS/FedEx stores that offered printing services. Outside of the US, copy/print centers are extremely common and fairly cheap/convenient; checking maps, there are 5 within walking distance ( > 500 meters) from my apartment and they're convenient services (+ cheap). All in all, what is the future to disrupt with consumer printers? The cost of ownership exceeds the number of times _I as an individual_ need to print every year/the cost of just using a copy center. For those with above-average printing needs, a professional printer setup is a better investment than a consumer printer.

Ansil849 5y ago
> the common copy shops were either Kinkos or (sometimes) USPS/UPS/FedEx stores that offered printing services. Outside of the US, copy/print centers are extremely common and fairly cheap/convenient; checking maps, there are 5 within walking distance ( > 500 meters) from my apartment and they're convenient services (+ cheap). The problem is that copy shops are hotbeds of identity theft. What kind of documents do people need to print out nowadays that they would bother going to a copy shop for if they don't have a home printer? For important financial, bureaucratic, etc. ones. This then leaves the risk that the low-paid staff now has a copy of your sensitive files, and if the printer caches jobs, anyone else accessing it may too.
- csydas 5y ago
  Mmm, I get your point but with government orgs, I see it two ways: 1. Form online you fill out 2. They only accept hand-filled (e.g., with pen) documents So I'm not really sure which forms you're thinking of; not doubting they exist, but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of crossover on forms that are required to be printed. The only thing I can really think of that is sensitive would be just identity documents, but I think a copy shop scanner caching the job is the _least_ of the worries (the offices/businesses that require such documents really do not have secure practices at all...) I get what you're saying I just don't think the threat factor is that big compared to the rest of the chain of custody threats with private documents, regardless of where it's printed.
FabHK 5y ago
> - Forcing all cartridges to have ink even to print in black and white In some cases, forcing all cartridges to have ink even to scan documents, IIRC.
mbarbar 5y ago
>Printers have been good for decades, and only the limitations built in by manufacturers make them bad This is what I was referring to, maybe using the word disrupt incorrectly. I meant to ask, is there anything stopping someone, like a bored billionaire, from coming in with a consumer friendly line of consumer printers, and capturing the market completely? In my mind, and I could be wrong, printers aren't sophisticated in a way that make it near impossible for new players (like high end semiconductor manufacturing, for example -- like you say, printers have been good for decades) and the software doesn't seem too out there either. In my mind, I envision something like what Raptor Computing [1] is trying to do for workstations and servers, but unlike Raptor, 1) the problem appears to be far simpler, and 2) the market for printers is larger and to consumers appears more directly beneficial. It's far harder to sell someone on (expensive!) hardware freedom than that the official ink refill isn't a complete rort, the ink is environmentally friendly, no annoying DRM, etc. Of course, that market is shrinking. I think the anecdotes you and others point out are not uncommon, and your last point about a professional setup makes sense, but then... who's buying these things? The office supply stores near me still dedicate a decent chunk of space to printers and ink cartridges. [1] https://www.raptorcs.com/ https://www.raptorcs.com/
- lordnacho 5y ago
  I'd imagine such a venture would be mostly marketing. No real innovation, which HN will point out, but lots of hype and your friend who doesn't know tech will buy one and tell you about the great new innovations and how they're disrupting the old monopoly.
  - mbarbar 5y ago
    Right, that's what I mean (I had understood the term disruption incorrectly). Is there a reason this is not a lucrative venture, to produce something clean and user-friendly that captures the goodwill of customers and force competitors to play nice? I'd imagine a business would be over the moon with the scenario you're describing.
    - lordnacho 5y ago
FireBeyond 5y ago
> I'm sure I've missed some of the other really sick ways, but I'm not really sure there are that many ways that could've been missed. The really sick way is (I forget which manufacturer, but believe HP) that refuses to let you _SCAN_ if the printer is out of ink.

by csydas 5y ago

Ansil849 5y ago

> the common copy shops were either Kinkos or (sometimes) USPS/UPS/FedEx stores that offered printing services. Outside of the US, copy/print centers are extremely common and fairly cheap/convenient; checking maps, there are 5 within walking distance ( > 500 meters) from my apartment and they're convenient services (+ cheap). The problem is that copy shops are hotbeds of identity theft. What kind of documents do people need to print out nowadays that they would bother going to a copy shop for if they don't have a home printer? For important financial, bureaucratic, etc. ones. This then leaves the risk that the low-paid staff now has a copy of your sensitive files, and if the printer caches jobs, anyone else accessing it may too.

csydas 5y ago
Mmm, I get your point but with government orgs, I see it two ways: 1. Form online you fill out 2. They only accept hand-filled (e.g., with pen) documents So I'm not really sure which forms you're thinking of; not doubting they exist, but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of crossover on forms that are required to be printed. The only thing I can really think of that is sensitive would be just identity documents, but I think a copy shop scanner caching the job is the _least_ of the worries (the offices/businesses that require such documents really do not have secure practices at all...) I get what you're saying I just don't think the threat factor is that big compared to the rest of the chain of custody threats with private documents, regardless of where it's printed.

FabHK 5y ago

> - Forcing all cartridges to have ink even to print in black and white In some cases, forcing all cartridges to have ink even to scan documents, IIRC.

mbarbar 5y ago

>Printers have been good for decades, and only the limitations built in by manufacturers make them bad This is what I was referring to, maybe using the word disrupt incorrectly. I meant to ask, is there anything stopping someone, like a bored billionaire, from coming in with a consumer friendly line of consumer printers, and capturing the market completely? In my mind, and I could be wrong, printers aren't sophisticated in a way that make it near impossible for new players (like high end semiconductor manufacturing, for example -- like you say, printers have been good for decades) and the software doesn't seem too out there either. In my mind, I envision something like what Raptor Computing [1] is trying to do for workstations and servers, but unlike Raptor, 1) the problem appears to be far simpler, and 2) the market for printers is larger and to consumers appears more directly beneficial. It's far harder to sell someone on (expensive!) hardware freedom than that the official ink refill isn't a complete rort, the ink is environmentally friendly, no annoying DRM, etc. Of course, that market is shrinking. I think the anecdotes you and others point out are not uncommon, and your last point about a professional setup makes sense, but then... who's buying these things? The office supply stores near me still dedicate a decent chunk of space to printers and ink cartridges. [1] https://www.raptorcs.com/ https://www.raptorcs.com/

lordnacho 5y ago
I'd imagine such a venture would be mostly marketing. No real innovation, which HN will point out, but lots of hype and your friend who doesn't know tech will buy one and tell you about the great new innovations and how they're disrupting the old monopoly.
- mbarbar 5y ago
  Right, that's what I mean (I had understood the term disruption incorrectly). Is there a reason this is not a lucrative venture, to produce something clean and user-friendly that captures the goodwill of customers and force competitors to play nice? I'd imagine a business would be over the moon with the scenario you're describing.
  - lordnacho 5y ago

FireBeyond 5y ago

> I'm sure I've missed some of the other really sick ways, but I'm not really sure there are that many ways that could've been missed. The really sick way is (I forget which manufacturer, but believe HP) that refuses to let you _SCAN_ if the printer is out of ink.