5 ms·

This shows a gross misunderstanding of viruses. 1. Children don't exist in a vacuum. Even if they don't become symptomatic, they can still be a carrier and the

by dagmx 5y ago

This shows a gross misunderstanding of viruses. 1. Children don't exist in a vacuum. Even if they don't become symptomatic, they can still be a carrier and they can still infect adults that they're in contact with. Should teachers be sacrificing themselves? Should families isolate their children within the house? 2. It's a low risk to healthy children. What do you do for children with other health complications? America has a lot of diabetic children. Covid is also shown to increase the risk of pre-diabetic children becoming diabetic https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-substantially-increases-diabetes-risk-in-kids-cdc-says/3485073/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-substan... 3. Covid is not a one and done. You get it, and it can have long term lasting effects even if it doesn't kill you. That applies to children as well. 4. Covid spreads very quickly with a relatively high risk to the greater population. Lockdowns were a safety measure at the very least to be able to keep pace with things. It was absolutely the right thing to do till the virus was more understood. 5. As the virus was more understood, it reinforced the above points because covid has very complex side effects

gsinclair 5y ago
A gross misunderstanding of viruses in January of 2022 is indistinguishable from a troll. I applaud your patience in replying so well, or even at all.
- dagmx 5y ago
  Thank you and agreed
colordrops 5y ago
1. There should have been and were lockdowns early in the pandemic. Once vaccines were available teachers should be ready to teach, just like every other worker that interfaces with people. At least teachers see the same people every day unlike grocery store clerks. 2. It's low risk to almost ALL children. The hospitalization rates of children have been around 1 per 1 million at peak infection periods. This is no worse than other diseases and doesn't prompt a special response. 3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children 4. We still don't understand the flu virus.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  You're only focusing on the children, while the post to which you're responding explicitly calls out that they are only a part of the entire system. The fact that they don't get really sick or are asymptomatic is actually really bad when you're trying to reduce transmission.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    Prompting the obvious questions (which I don't think have clear answers): How much do we think that it reduced transmission? How much transmission reduction is needed to justify knocking a year of socialising out of of a child's life?
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      What I'm curious about is why did we see so little effort to keep socializing available to kids without just going back to school? I'm not aware of a single place that made a noticeable effort to e.g encourage small fixed social pods to form, or run outdoor activities after school hours for the kids who wanted to be there, etc. Even among the parents who were basically fulltime campaigning to re-open schools for the sake of mental health, I didn't notice discussion of what they were doing in the meantime, and surely they were doing something.
- nosuchthing 5y ago
  Long Covid is understood better now as an autoimmune disease that comes from even mild cases. https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/covid-19-can-trigger-self-attacking-antibodies/ https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/covid-19-can-trigger-s... This is in addition to worse damage that occurs throughout the body to any ACE2 cell, which are found in the brain along with the entire cardiovascular system and every other major organ in the body. Hospitalizations in children are rising this year because last year they were out of school and NPI safety was much higher than 2021. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant-fills-up-childrens-hospitals/ar-AASbGCQ https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/number-babies-toddlers-hospital-covid-25821925 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/number-babies-toddlers... https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-warning-symptoms-children-kids-hospitalized-record-numbers-rcna10741 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-warning-sym... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-children-us-covid-hospitalized-uk/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-children-us-covid-hospit... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210716112443.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210716112443.h... https://twitter.com/rafalab/status/1477302949604995075 https://twitter.com/rafalab/status/1477302949604995075 https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1476253591677587456 https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1476253591677587456 https://mobile.twitter.com/jneill/status/1479066859270025219 https://mobile.twitter.com/jneill/status/1479066859270025219 117,000 children now living with long Covid +40,000 more than October 20,000 children for longer than a year +6,000 more than October Children crossing 12,000 children have their "activity limited a lot" +4,000 more than October
stickfigure 5y ago
> Should teachers be sacrificing themselves? I want to directly address this one - I think the answer is yes. I still get in the engine and answer 911 calls. My wife still goes to the hospital and attends patients. Why shouldn't teachers go to work? Sure, some teachers are old and/or have health issues, and even with vaccination might be at unreasonable risk. Those people need to do something else (sure, with a lot of social support) and let people who are willing and able to do the job take over. The purpose of the educational system is not to coddle teachers. The virus is endemic. Whatever happened to "keep calm and carry on"? My grandparents experienced far worse than a virus with a sub-1% fatality rate (and a tiny fraction of that with a couple jabs), and they still sent their kids to school. Let's just accept the danger and move on.
- chrissnell 5y ago
  This. Millions of workers, "essential" or not, went to work day in and day out in 2020. The only reason that so many teachers did not is that they have strong unions, who turn out in droves to donate and vote for politicians that do their bidding in return. The teachers unions openly advocated for policies that were terrible for our kids. I will never forget how the union in my district fought us at every step as we tried to restore normalcy in our children's lives.
- dagmx 5y ago
  I think I just fundamentally disagree that we pay our teachers, workers and other frontline workers like yourself enough (though I'm not sure how much firefighters make) to warrant them risking themselves if they don't have to. Teachers can teach with remote learning. Maybe it's not as good, but it's doable. You can't stop a fire remotely. We really need to reevaluate society by making work safer and making sure people are paid better.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    The firefighters in my district don't get paid (except for a few support staff). We do it for free. If teachers think the pay isn't worth the risk, retire and let others take over. We don't need to re-evaluate society, we need people to man up and do their jobs. What are you waiting for? We have very effective vaccines. The virus may wax and wane but it is never going away. Thankfully my kiddo is too young to be impacted by this, but all my friends with grade schoolers tell me that remote learning is a farce. So I don't think that's the answer.
mercy_dude 5y ago
You conveniently miss one crucial piece of data that is already available. That is countries that had schools open for the most part of the pandemic. I have families in western Canada and except early Spring and summer of 2020, schools remained open and are still open. They didn’t have much different outcome if not better than us in US.
- dagmx 5y ago
  Canada had varied lockdowns too by province. Canada also has way lower vaccine hesitancy and lower population density. On average Canadians have fewer co-morbidities. I live in Canada so am quite aware. If we're talking about comparisons then let's not cherry pick ones without considering the whole context.
  - mercy_dude 5y ago
    > Canada had varied level of lockdowns too by province. Schools have been open for the most part in Ontario and Alberta since Fall 2020. > Canada has way lower vaccine hesitancy. New York City has 82.5% of population vaccinated, about as much as Ontario [1]. Yet schools were closed for most parents throughout the pandemic. > On average Canadians have fewer comorbidities. Where the hell are you getting this from? Health Canada numbers say 64% adults are overweight or obese [2]. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.page#people https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.p... [2] https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/obesity-excess-weight-rates-canadian-adults.html https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications...
    - dagmx 5y ago
      The CDC numbers (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db56.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db56.htm) say Canadians have lower obesity Ontario also had outbreaks that aligned with the removal of lockdown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Ontario?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Ontario?w...) > In early September 2020, the province showed a significant increase in new cases, beginning the second wave of the pandemic. > From late November to mid-December 2020, the province began placing regions in rolling lockdowns, culminating in a province-wide shutdown beginning Boxing Day So I'm not sure your use of Ontario is the greatest.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by dagmx 5y ago

gsinclair 5y ago

A gross misunderstanding of viruses in January of 2022 is indistinguishable from a troll. I applaud your patience in replying so well, or even at all.

dagmx 5y ago
Thank you and agreed

colordrops 5y ago

1. There should have been and were lockdowns early in the pandemic. Once vaccines were available teachers should be ready to teach, just like every other worker that interfaces with people. At least teachers see the same people every day unlike grocery store clerks. 2. It's low risk to almost ALL children. The hospitalization rates of children have been around 1 per 1 million at peak infection periods. This is no worse than other diseases and doesn't prompt a special response. 3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children 4. We still don't understand the flu virus.

skeeter2020 5y ago
You're only focusing on the children, while the post to which you're responding explicitly calls out that they are only a part of the entire system. The fact that they don't get really sick or are asymptomatic is actually really bad when you're trying to reduce transmission.
- roenxi 5y ago
  Prompting the obvious questions (which I don't think have clear answers): How much do we think that it reduced transmission? How much transmission reduction is needed to justify knocking a year of socialising out of of a child's life?
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    What I'm curious about is why did we see so little effort to keep socializing available to kids without just going back to school? I'm not aware of a single place that made a noticeable effort to e.g encourage small fixed social pods to form, or run outdoor activities after school hours for the kids who wanted to be there, etc. Even among the parents who were basically fulltime campaigning to re-open schools for the sake of mental health, I didn't notice discussion of what they were doing in the meantime, and surely they were doing something.
nosuchthing 5y ago
Long Covid is understood better now as an autoimmune disease that comes from even mild cases. https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/covid-19-can-trigger-self-attacking-antibodies/ https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/covid-19-can-trigger-s... This is in addition to worse damage that occurs throughout the body to any ACE2 cell, which are found in the brain along with the entire cardiovascular system and every other major organ in the body. Hospitalizations in children are rising this year because last year they were out of school and NPI safety was much higher than 2021. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant-fills-up-childrens-hospitals/ar-AASbGCQ https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/number-babies-toddlers-hospital-covid-25821925 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/number-babies-toddlers... https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-warning-symptoms-children-kids-hospitalized-record-numbers-rcna10741 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-warning-sym... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-children-us-covid-hospitalized-uk/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-children-us-covid-hospit... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210716112443.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210716112443.h... https://twitter.com/rafalab/status/1477302949604995075 https://twitter.com/rafalab/status/1477302949604995075 https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1476253591677587456 https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1476253591677587456 https://mobile.twitter.com/jneill/status/1479066859270025219 https://mobile.twitter.com/jneill/status/1479066859270025219 117,000 children now living with long Covid +40,000 more than October 20,000 children for longer than a year +6,000 more than October Children crossing 12,000 children have their "activity limited a lot" +4,000 more than October

stickfigure 5y ago

> Should teachers be sacrificing themselves? I want to directly address this one - I think the answer is yes. I still get in the engine and answer 911 calls. My wife still goes to the hospital and attends patients. Why shouldn't teachers go to work? Sure, some teachers are old and/or have health issues, and even with vaccination might be at unreasonable risk. Those people need to do something else (sure, with a lot of social support) and let people who are willing and able to do the job take over. The purpose of the educational system is not to coddle teachers. The virus is endemic. Whatever happened to "keep calm and carry on"? My grandparents experienced far worse than a virus with a sub-1% fatality rate (and a tiny fraction of that with a couple jabs), and they still sent their kids to school. Let's just accept the danger and move on.

chrissnell 5y ago
This. Millions of workers, "essential" or not, went to work day in and day out in 2020. The only reason that so many teachers did not is that they have strong unions, who turn out in droves to donate and vote for politicians that do their bidding in return. The teachers unions openly advocated for policies that were terrible for our kids. I will never forget how the union in my district fought us at every step as we tried to restore normalcy in our children's lives.
dagmx 5y ago
I think I just fundamentally disagree that we pay our teachers, workers and other frontline workers like yourself enough (though I'm not sure how much firefighters make) to warrant them risking themselves if they don't have to. Teachers can teach with remote learning. Maybe it's not as good, but it's doable. You can't stop a fire remotely. We really need to reevaluate society by making work safer and making sure people are paid better.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  The firefighters in my district don't get paid (except for a few support staff). We do it for free. If teachers think the pay isn't worth the risk, retire and let others take over. We don't need to re-evaluate society, we need people to man up and do their jobs. What are you waiting for? We have very effective vaccines. The virus may wax and wane but it is never going away. Thankfully my kiddo is too young to be impacted by this, but all my friends with grade schoolers tell me that remote learning is a farce. So I don't think that's the answer.

mercy_dude 5y ago

You conveniently miss one crucial piece of data that is already available. That is countries that had schools open for the most part of the pandemic. I have families in western Canada and except early Spring and summer of 2020, schools remained open and are still open. They didn’t have much different outcome if not better than us in US.

dagmx 5y ago
Canada had varied lockdowns too by province. Canada also has way lower vaccine hesitancy and lower population density. On average Canadians have fewer co-morbidities. I live in Canada so am quite aware. If we're talking about comparisons then let's not cherry pick ones without considering the whole context.
- mercy_dude 5y ago
  > Canada had varied level of lockdowns too by province. Schools have been open for the most part in Ontario and Alberta since Fall 2020. > Canada has way lower vaccine hesitancy. New York City has 82.5% of population vaccinated, about as much as Ontario [1]. Yet schools were closed for most parents throughout the pandemic. > On average Canadians have fewer comorbidities. Where the hell are you getting this from? Health Canada numbers say 64% adults are overweight or obese [2]. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.page#people https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.p... [2] https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/obesity-excess-weight-rates-canadian-adults.html https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications...
  - dagmx 5y ago
    The CDC numbers (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db56.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db56.htm) say Canadians have lower obesity Ontario also had outbreaks that aligned with the removal of lockdown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Ontario?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Ontario?w...) > In early September 2020, the province showed a significant increase in new cases, beginning the second wave of the pandemic. > From late November to mid-December 2020, the province began placing regions in rolling lockdowns, culminating in a province-wide shutdown beginning Boxing Day So I'm not sure your use of Ontario is the greatest.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]