6 ms·

Now do "sound must be remastered for stereo speakers."

by Grakel 5y ago

ugjka 5y ago
What's the problem?
- Grakel 5y ago
  Wild volume swings, insane punches for explosions but silent dialogue.
  - jagged-chisel 5y ago
    It’s SOP for Hollywood. Sad we’re not getting Real Innovation around this problem.
    - Grakel 5y ago
      Yeah, I have no interest in surround sound, I just want to hear the words. I specifically don't want to be rumbled by gunshots and explosions.
    - pvarangot 5y ago
      Blueray supports downmix metadata that I think lets you mix volumes with the full 6x2 matrix, and I don't remember if there's EQ but there may be. Also a 5.1 AV is like 500 bucks if you have the space. I don't think what other innovations you need. The technology to stream different audio streams and let the user choose is there. Thing is most studios now do only one mix for theaters and also most streaming providers don't give many fucks about audio. It's not an innovation problem it's a product problem.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  When the sound design is targeted for 5.1, most of the dialogue comes from the center speaker. This is great if you have one. However if its downmixed on the fly (ie done on the client side) the center channel is often just played out of both speakers. This means that sound can be muffled, because its drowned out by the incidental noise that comes from the left/right channel.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > the center channel is often just played out of both speakers Well what other option do you have when there are only two speakers? Only play it out of one?
    - mulmen 5y ago
      The next sentence explains why this is a problem. > This means that sound can be muffled, because its drowned out by the incidental noise that comes from the left/right channel.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        Yeah I read the same comment you did, but if you're taking a signal with 6 channels, and only have two channels out, you don't really have any option but send the middle channel to both outputs, else it'll sound far too intense in a single ear.
    - wmf 5y ago
      A separate stereo audio mix.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        How else would you mix the dialogue except to come out of both speakers though?
        noizejoy 5y ago
        Just make it a bit louder, before summing it into the left and right channel
        chrisseaton 5y ago
sen 5y ago
This is the most ridiculous thing about Netflix. So many great brains there yet none of them can perceive a world where not everyone has a high end home cinema.
- nixgeek 5y ago
  I guess they’re optimizing for customers who do, and then transcoding to lower qualities for all the people who do not?
  - waffle_maniac 5y ago
    Seems prudent.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Or allowing the home hardware to do the mix for them. This is when it sounds the worst in my not so humble opinion.
- Raidion 5y ago
  I mean, this isn't for movies that are bought by Netflix from an existing rights holder, it's movies and series that are commissioned by Netflix. It seems reasonable that they'd want to capture as high quality as possible for as much content as possible, as you can always lose quality in post (or distribution). I don't suppose this would preclude directors using cameras that wouldn't work otherwise when needed (like clip from a cell phone camera). I also have a hard time believing Netflix would be ok putting up money to capture a picture/series all in 16mm film (or that anyone would suggest the commercial success or artistic vision demanded it). So it doesn't stifle creativity, it future proofs Netfix for the lucrative high end market, AND Netflix is paying (at least indirectly) for that level of quality. I don't see the problem here.
  - hug 5y ago
    You may have mixed up where you're responding to: This particular comment thread is not really about the cameras that are in use, but instead about the sound. (Sound recorded by the camera itself -- if it can even record sound -- is essentially never used.) The problem is that the camera requirements are defined, presumably to try to have some lower bound on the quality of the visuals, there is no requirement for audio such that it sounds good on stereo speakers, which is probably what the majority of consumers are using. The idea that Netflix have such a strict definition on camera quality is also a bit of a farce, given how woeful the image looks after it goes through their incredibly overenthusiastic level of compression, but that's neither here nor there.
totetsu 5y ago
https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000897167-Production-Sound-Best-Practices https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360...
dylan604 5y ago
This pretty much ended around Blu-ray/HD-DVD switch from DVD. It was pretty standard to have a dedicated 2.0 Lt/Rt (sometimes a Lo/Ro) mix that was typically included as the first (default friendly) audio track on the DVD. This was convenient for people that did not have a surround system. Ideally, these were separate mixes vs automated downmix. They typically sounded good in stereo only. With the HD formats, it became the norm to no longer include the stereo source on the disc. Now, the expense of this specific mix could be avoided. Who in the world only has 2 speakers? /s
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Still, Bluray discs with the downmix metadata set correctly should still sound better in stereo than a streaming source that was downmixed without dynamic range and mix preference metadata. The technology is old enough to be long out of patent either way.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Dolby's DialNorm setting was their true bit of gold. Incorrectly setting that value on surround encodings had a huge impact. Correctly getting that DialNorm value required Dolby gear. Many people could not afford that gear, so a -27 value was set across the board whether it was correct or not. Metadata only isn't a panacea
jon-wood 5y ago
Sadly the requirements for sound mastering state that having only a 5.1 mix is fine, and if you’re doing a stereo mix it’s alright to just slap the centre/surround channels into left/right after dropping the volume a bit. https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001794307-Netflix-Sound-Mix-Specifications-Best-Practices-v1-4 https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360... That last point means that dialogue is likely to be quieter than sound effects and music, since dialogue is usually on the centre channel.

Now do "sound must be remastered for stereo speakers."

by Grakel 5y ago

Now do "sound must be remastered for stereo speakers."

ugjka 5y ago

What's the problem?

Grakel 5y ago
Wild volume swings, insane punches for explosions but silent dialogue.
- jagged-chisel 5y ago
  It’s SOP for Hollywood. Sad we’re not getting Real Innovation around this problem.
  - Grakel 5y ago
    Yeah, I have no interest in surround sound, I just want to hear the words. I specifically don't want to be rumbled by gunshots and explosions.
  - pvarangot 5y ago
    Blueray supports downmix metadata that I think lets you mix volumes with the full 6x2 matrix, and I don't remember if there's EQ but there may be. Also a 5.1 AV is like 500 bucks if you have the space. I don't think what other innovations you need. The technology to stream different audio streams and let the user choose is there. Thing is most studios now do only one mix for theaters and also most streaming providers don't give many fucks about audio. It's not an innovation problem it's a product problem.
KaiserPro 5y ago
When the sound design is targeted for 5.1, most of the dialogue comes from the center speaker. This is great if you have one. However if its downmixed on the fly (ie done on the client side) the center channel is often just played out of both speakers. This means that sound can be muffled, because its drowned out by the incidental noise that comes from the left/right channel.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > the center channel is often just played out of both speakers Well what other option do you have when there are only two speakers? Only play it out of one?
  - mulmen 5y ago
    The next sentence explains why this is a problem. > This means that sound can be muffled, because its drowned out by the incidental noise that comes from the left/right channel.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Yeah I read the same comment you did, but if you're taking a signal with 6 channels, and only have two channels out, you don't really have any option but send the middle channel to both outputs, else it'll sound far too intense in a single ear.
  - wmf 5y ago
    A separate stereo audio mix.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      How else would you mix the dialogue except to come out of both speakers though?
      - noizejoy 5y ago
        Just make it a bit louder, before summing it into the left and right channel
        chrisseaton 5y ago

sen 5y ago

This is the most ridiculous thing about Netflix. So many great brains there yet none of them can perceive a world where not everyone has a high end home cinema.

nixgeek 5y ago
I guess they’re optimizing for customers who do, and then transcoding to lower qualities for all the people who do not?
- waffle_maniac 5y ago
  Seems prudent.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Or allowing the home hardware to do the mix for them. This is when it sounds the worst in my not so humble opinion.
Raidion 5y ago
I mean, this isn't for movies that are bought by Netflix from an existing rights holder, it's movies and series that are commissioned by Netflix. It seems reasonable that they'd want to capture as high quality as possible for as much content as possible, as you can always lose quality in post (or distribution). I don't suppose this would preclude directors using cameras that wouldn't work otherwise when needed (like clip from a cell phone camera). I also have a hard time believing Netflix would be ok putting up money to capture a picture/series all in 16mm film (or that anyone would suggest the commercial success or artistic vision demanded it). So it doesn't stifle creativity, it future proofs Netfix for the lucrative high end market, AND Netflix is paying (at least indirectly) for that level of quality. I don't see the problem here.
- hug 5y ago
  You may have mixed up where you're responding to: This particular comment thread is not really about the cameras that are in use, but instead about the sound. (Sound recorded by the camera itself -- if it can even record sound -- is essentially never used.) The problem is that the camera requirements are defined, presumably to try to have some lower bound on the quality of the visuals, there is no requirement for audio such that it sounds good on stereo speakers, which is probably what the majority of consumers are using. The idea that Netflix have such a strict definition on camera quality is also a bit of a farce, given how woeful the image looks after it goes through their incredibly overenthusiastic level of compression, but that's neither here nor there.

totetsu 5y ago

https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000897167-Production-Sound-Best-Practices https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360...

dylan604 5y ago

This pretty much ended around Blu-ray/HD-DVD switch from DVD. It was pretty standard to have a dedicated 2.0 Lt/Rt (sometimes a Lo/Ro) mix that was typically included as the first (default friendly) audio track on the DVD. This was convenient for people that did not have a surround system. Ideally, these were separate mixes vs automated downmix. They typically sounded good in stereo only. With the HD formats, it became the norm to no longer include the stereo source on the disc. Now, the expense of this specific mix could be avoided. Who in the world only has 2 speakers? /s

nitrogen 5y ago
Still, Bluray discs with the downmix metadata set correctly should still sound better in stereo than a streaming source that was downmixed without dynamic range and mix preference metadata. The technology is old enough to be long out of patent either way.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Dolby's DialNorm setting was their true bit of gold. Incorrectly setting that value on surround encodings had a huge impact. Correctly getting that DialNorm value required Dolby gear. Many people could not afford that gear, so a -27 value was set across the board whether it was correct or not. Metadata only isn't a panacea

jon-wood 5y ago

Sadly the requirements for sound mastering state that having only a 5.1 mix is fine, and if you’re doing a stereo mix it’s alright to just slap the centre/surround channels into left/right after dropping the volume a bit. https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001794307-Netflix-Sound-Mix-Specifications-Best-Practices-v1-4 https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360... That last point means that dialogue is likely to be quieter than sound effects and music, since dialogue is usually on the centre channel.